S2:E1 Steph

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Kevin: Welcome everyone to another episode of the Re frameable podcast, A podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more , because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass.

In today's episode, we talk with Steph Prangley. Steph is a nutritional therapy practitioner and recovery coach, living with her husband, three dogs, and too many houseplant in Greenville, South Carolina. She's a coach at Reframe and runs The Sober Rebellion a virtual private practice, helping clients use nutrition and functional wellness practices to enhance recovery efforts, repair their body from the damage done with long-term alcohol use and address underlying conditions that often overlap with chronic alcohol use.

More than a nutrition practice the Sober Rebellion is about helping people feel their best in the holistic sense, so they can let [00:01:00] go of external expectations in a world telling them "you're not enough" and "you come last".

Today we talk about Steph's story, which is deeply rooted in the history of high achieving perfectionism and self-sabotage cycles.

In her twenties and thirties, she escaped feelings of low self-worth by overworking and disordered eating. In her late thirties, she began healing her relationship with work, food, and her body, but developed a disordered relationship with alcohol. Instead, Steph has found freedom from alcohol work addiction, and disordered eating by addressing her chronic health conditions and feelings of low self-worth. She loves serving her community and is passionate about using her training experience and education to serve people healing their relationship with alcohol.

My name is Kevin Bellack. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe App.

This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the [00:02:00] healthiest, happiest you.

So without any further delay, let's go chat with Steph.

. Yeah. And I, , I grabbed my coffee and I, I was listening to some of your other podcasts too, um, and about, you're talking about coffee and I'm like, I feel attacked. Um,

Steph: oh my God, you're gonna hate this too. I decided, I decided, I'm like, too dependent on it.

So this week I've been, I've been cutting back. I've always done like half calf or even more decaf than that, but I'll drink like a ton of it, so I just get the same effect. But in, yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like five of these like giant stupid friends

Kevin: cups. You basically have three cups a day of coffee anyway.

Yeah.

Steph: Yeah. It's like, this is like, I don't know, a half gallon when you have three or four of 'em. Yeah. Um, so I've done like three quarters calf, and I've been limiting how many I've been having and. I don't wanna tell you that. 'cause I know that how much you love your coffee.

Kevin: Hey, it is [00:03:00] what it is, everybody

yeah. To each their own and all that. But, uh, but yeah, welcome Steph. Thank you for joining me today. How are you doing?

Steph: I am doing great, Kevin. Thanks for having me.

Kevin: Yeah welcome on the podcast and, let's, uh, launch right in and why don't you tell us a little bit about, uh, your story and we can go from there.

Steph: Yeah, let's get into it. Um, I always say I've kind of like a boring, sober story. Um, A lot of it was rooted in being like a, just this high performing overachieving perfectionist type a kind of person. And I think now I understand anyone who lists off those descriptors is just like the ultimate people pleaser and find it really hard to get in touch with like your real needs and your real wants and even your authentic self.

Um, but on paper it shows up as someone who like really has their shit together. So, [00:04:00] I mean, even going back to like high school, you know, I was a top athlete, um, a straight A student. I was just like this good girl, like obedient, good girl to pretty strict parents. Um, and then I was on scholarship for volleyball in college and it was just more of an extension of this like good girl persona.

Um, I didn't really drink until my sophomore year of college. 'cause we, I mean, being on scholarship, it's like we take it really seriously. I know like the men's teams don't have to as much, but like women's teams, we like, were expected not to drink. And you know, we still did stuff in the off season, so there was a very narrow window for that.

But I had these, um, chronic back injuries and I decided to quit volleyball. Um, just quit my scholarship. And then I had this huge identity crisis and like piggybacking that off of always being [00:05:00] this good girl, I just decided to like rebel. Um, I started drinking, I started smoking cigarettes. I just had this like freedom to explore the typical college party life and it was really hard for me to figure out where I fit in when I wasn't an athlete anymore.

So that's sort of when it started. Um, well that's definitely when it started and I remember like questioning my drinking even in college. Like I remember thinking, I don't like this, I don't like how much it changes me. But then I did like how much it changed me because I was just this weirdo, like this introverted girl, like socially awkward.

I didn't have a lot of self-confidence and you know, obviously alcohol like changes that for us, like could make me bubbly and I could flirt with guys and make new friends and, and whatever. But, um, I don't know, [00:06:00] like that's all, that's when it started and it was definitely like binge drinking. Looking back, I was never someone, even if I did have one or two, I never wanted to drink like that.

Like I always wanted to binge drink. Um, yeah. And then as I grew up, it was more, um, like in my twenties, more of that, uh, like deeply rooted belief in I needed to like look a certain way or achieve a certain number on the scale, achieve a certain title at work, earn a certain income. There was like always more and more and more.

I, I never felt like I was enough as I was, and, you know, socially awkward and shy and whatever. It was just like alcohol allowed me to tolerate crowded places, which I hate and tolerate loud places, which I hate. And I don't know, it just, it feels like when I look back, I was always numbing with something like if it wasn't like [00:07:00] overworking, then it was disordered eating or over exercising. And then when that became unsustainable, it was like, okay, I'm gonna drink to cope with the stress and the pressure and the fact that like, I feel like a loser 'cause I can't keep up with this crazy lifestyle. I, I'm like inflicting on myself.

Yeah. You know what I mean?

Kevin: Oh, I, yeah, 100% get that. 'cause that's definitely with the kind of self, uh, self-soothing or whatever, whether it was with overworking or over drinking. Those are two of my big things. Like, 'cause you know, I always look at it like, overworking was just like easy, right?

Because I, I felt like I needed to do more because I didn't feel like I was enough or I was good enough, or I had to keep up this, you know, uh, tempo or whatever. And it was always there, right? It's never ending work. We can just always keep doing that. So I think that's the easy thing that a lot of people dive [00:08:00] into.

But then you also have alcohol where it can fuel that potentially as well. All the way back to the, I was a, yeah, I was a D 3 athlete. Uh, you know, I, I played football for two years and, uh, definitely did not use the mentality of I'm not gonna drink during the season or things like that.

Like, I dove right in, in college and, uh, started drinking, but then I had to change my major and things, you know, so, uh, midway through, which then I, you know, stopped playing football, which then led to a little bit of, uh, identity crisis there as well. I understand where you're coming from for that. That makes sense. Um, and then how did that continue to play out for you, with the work and, all those kind of maybe, I don't know would you call 'em self-sabotaging type of behaviors or,

Steph: yeah, I mean, I self-sabotage. I call it self-harm now.

I mean, it really is like forms of self-harm. Um, it's just not as overt as other things that we think about. But when I think of just the physical and [00:09:00] emotional ringer I threw myself in, you know, it like it really was truly harmful. Um, but yeah, it showed up as this pattern, so I would like, so I, before I became a coach full-time, I was an actuary and so I talked about being this like high achieving whatever, well there's like 20,000 fully credentialed actuaries in the world and like I'm one of 'em.

That's just like another way that that showed up for me. Um, I always felt like I needed to get through those exams and like prove that to someone. I don't know who, like, looking back, I'm like, I don't know who I was trying to prove myself to. I was just like, Hey world, look at me. I'm super special. And I just would get in the cycle of like being all in to study for the exams and at the time, kind of starving myself going on, like riding on caffeine, cigarettes, and unprescribed Adderall to get, like, to maintain this weight while I didn't have the time [00:10:00] to work out or eat healthy.

Um where I could function on like four or five hours of sleep. And then of course this, like once I'm like, I'll just do this until I do take the exam. Then I would take the exam and then it was like, then I'll like party for a little bit and then I'll become like the good girl again. Do the diet, get back into exercising until the next exam.

And it was just this like super toxic lifestyle where I wasn't taking care of myself. And when I felt super overwhelmed with it all, with all of these unreasonable expectations, then I would just drink so I could forget about it. And you know, I wouldn't say that was even like weekly. It wasn't something I did weekly.

It was definitely, self-medicating as needed. Um, yeah, so I mean, and then like that pattern kind of happened until my mid [00:11:00] thirties or so. I'm almost 42 now. Um, so in like my mid to late thirties, I started like, I just started like suffering the consequences of that toxic lifestyle. So, I mean, I just, I took this promotion in Pittsburgh, after I got like my actuarial credentials and it was just like the ultimate toxic environment. I mean, me crying in my office being micromanaged, even though I had like, I don't know, like 12 years of experience at that point. It was like one of those just horror situations that you hear about and that isn't that common in an industry like actuarial.

Like typically we're treated pretty well. Like, yeah, you can work a lot, but like the emotional stuff that I went through is pretty uncommon in a professional environment like that. And my body just fell apart, you know? And I think that toxic job was just to stop the straw that broke the camel's back.

But my physical body fell [00:12:00] apart. Like I, um, I. I mean, I like chronic fatigue was like my biggest thing and digestive issues and other hormone stuff, but the chronic fatigue was really debilitating. Like I would try to walk my dogs and for five, 10 minutes just around the block and I would have to nap for two hours after that.

Um, the brain fog, like my body was just shutting down. And that's sort of when I started thinking about like, I mean, I started getting into nutrition at that point and I'm like, okay, I am chronically ill. Like I am so sick and everyone's saying that I look like going to regular doctors. It's like, oh, have you tried losing weight or taking an antidepressant?

And I'm like, Yeah,

Kevin: no, I never thought of that. Like, thanks for your expert advice.

Steph: I know, I'm like [00:13:00] telling you that my body's falling apart and I can't even, like, I would forget words to basic things and Okay. Um, like, I couldn't remember the word for like, squash. Like I wanted my husband to pick up some squash to make some dish with or something, and like bathtub, like just everyday words.

It was like, what's that? Like, what's that word? What's that word? I mean, it was really serious and I mean, it did, I would say it looked a lot like depression, but I, like, I knew it wasn't that, like I knew it was something else and. So now like looking back, it's like okay, it's just like a combination of abusing the crap out of your body for like 20 years, you know?

Kevin: And that's what I was gonna ask. Was it, was it like directly related to overwork or alcohol or something like that, that you noticed? Or was it just that combination of everything building up over time?

Steph: Yeah, I mean, I think it was just a combination of that. I think the undereating, um, I mean it was just years of stress.

[00:14:00] So like the undereating would be like physical stress on the body and creating these like famine conditions unnecessarily and over exercising. So I was, um, like still playing competitive volleyball even after college. And so I was going on very little sleep, um, stress at work, trying to climb the corporate ladder, pass these exams very like undereating under nourishing.

And then, It's like, yeah, like periodic binge drinking, smoking cigarettes, living off of caffeine and sugar and, I don't know. It's like, of course, you know, we all, we all play pay lip service to how terrible stresses for us, but like, that's it working in real life. It's like, and our bodies are super resilient, so Yeah.

It didn't show up right away in my twenties when I can like bounce back, it took 15 years of that. Yeah. For it to really show up in my bo and then now it's been trying to recover ever since really. And [00:15:00] you know, a lot of what I realized doing my nutrition stuff is okay, I've been undereating.

That is not the way to go. The calories and calories out thing has been wildly debunked, and that's how I've been living my life trying to shrink myself mm-hmm. As much as humanly possible. So I started really working on my relationship with food and making peace with my body, realizing that these years of undereating may have done permanent damage to my metabolism.

And just finding a way to accept that, you know, I probably won't look like I did in college, like ever again. Yeah. And that's probably okay for me to like, put my energy elsewhere. Um, but I didn't really, when I was making peace with food, making peace with my body, I mean, I was forced into it. I was chronically ill, I was on the couch.

I mean, I went from, I. Playing competitive sports to couch bound almo like what seemed like overnight, but it was a decade [00:16:00] plus of getting there.

Kevin: And when was this?

Steph: This was in, uh, like early 2019. It wasn't that long ago. Okay. Yeah. Um, well, I started working on the food and body stuff.

Yeah. Probably around then. Okay. Um, but, you know, I, like, I started this talk with the perfectionism, the feelings of low self-worth. Like I always had to prove myself. I didn't really uncover any of that and how it related to the disordered eating and stuff like that. Like, I just realized like I don't have to like my body to respect it and I'm never gonna feel better unless I treat it well.

And like that was the motivation for it. I didn't know about this other stuff, and so I. I kind of started drinking to numb that stuff. I didn't have the food restriction to distract me from all of that other [00:17:00] stuff that was underlying it.

Kevin: Yeah. That, that had been building up or there for years.

Yeah. Yeah. So and you had been, you said binge drinking before that, and then how did that maybe change? And I'm thinking, I'm trying to think, 2019, uh, when was, when was Covid? Oh, 2020, that started, uh, you know, did that change then? Uh, as far as the, the drinking aspect of it?

And, and how did that progress.

Steph: Yeah, it was covid related. I mean, or maybe the timing like was coincidental. I don't know. Yeah. Um, like it just so happened that I went, it didn't help. Right. It didn't help. And my husband and I lived on a farm at that time, so we were like kind of living our best life.

We like had all his property and we were kind of isolated anyway. But yeah, I mean the pandemic really, really like hit me hard with that. So I was, you know, feeling pretty good about the way my body looked and not feeling my worth was tied to [00:18:00] that. But, you know, I just started drinking to numb, like what was going on in the world and stop what was going on in my head.

Yeah. You know, I got so much of my. Like, I felt so much of my self-worth revolved around being productive and, uh, accomplishing things and being this high achiever. And so, you know, tying that into the chronic illness where I no longer had anything to really show off or prove that I was worthy in a way and I felt like a loser.

Like, I just felt like this loser. Like, I can't, I can't move my body the way I want to because I'm sick. I can't really pursue this outside business I wanna do because I'm so fatigued and I, I have to just do the corporate job because it's paying the bills. I can't even do that. Well, because I

Kevin: was gonna ask like, how did that, I mean, 'cause I would assume that that fatigue and if you can't remember, um, and, and I, I [00:19:00] don't know how that exactly showed up, but if you can't remember like, Hey, can you pick up a squash?

Like right. And you're doing actuary work, like, that must've been tough.

Steph: I don't know how I did it, honestly. Like part of it is I, I took a demotion with the last job I worked at, so we went from toxic environment to really good environment, but I, I like deliberately took a demotion there.

So it was, I mean, kind of easier, like easier work for me. I was way overqualified for what I was doing there. Yeah. That helped. I worked from home. That was always a condition and I worked flex hours. My boss, I just had a great boss. Um, yeah, and I took disability from the doc, the toxic job, and I took disability for a period of time at the good job, my most recent job.

So I mean, if I'm honest, I don't think anyone from there will be listening to this, but I don't think I ever [00:20:00] really worked more than 30 hours a week as a full-time employee there. And I would spread that out too. So I might work some Saturdays, or I would take naps in the middle of the day and then work a little later.

That's how, like, that's how I got around that. Yeah. But I still felt like a loser. I mean, it doesn't feel good to like bust your ass to get these credentials and feel really capable of being a high performer in the workplace and knowing that I. Hey, your body just can't keep up with your ambitions.

Yeah. Whether it's career related or physical health or even relationship, like my relationship suffered during this time, it's hard to watch your wife who you're used to seeing, like active and happy and out and about and socializing, like on the freaking couch, you know? So all of that combined with the pandemic I think is what really where my drinking really took off.

You [00:21:00] know, the bottles of wine, like a bottle or two of wine a week turned into a box of wine. I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna know, like I didn't wanna know how much I was drinking and, we could, I could justify it as well. I get a, like boxes of wine. It stays better longer in the pandemic. It's cheaper.

We don't wanna be going to the grocery store. Yeah. Like everything. Yeah. I found like every reason, and I dunno, I had a lot of feelings of inadequacy 'cause of the chronic illness I had. I mean there, you know, body image work isn't done. So there was still a lot of that going on. Not as much how it looked, but what it could do or couldn't do.

Mm-hmm. It was hard for me to not be able to play sports and go to yoga and ride my bike and doing these things I love doing that. That's just depressing. It's depressing to not physically be able to do hobbies. And so, I don't [00:22:00] know. During the pandemic, I would say it became almost daily.

Like that's, that's really when it. When it really took off. And then,

Kevin: because then you throw in that uncertainty, right? Of everything going on in the pandemic, um, which, which isn't going to help things at all.

Steph: Yeah. It was really hard. Um, and then we weren't particularly happy living out on the farm either.

So we sold the farm and moved to the city and then, then I started kind of looking at my drinking habits and then my new cycle was like the whole detox to retox cycle. So I'd be like, wow, I've been drinking a lot. I'm gonna take a few weeks off and then magically be able to moderate my drinking when I come back.

And um,

Kevin: and that was like, kind of like what you said before about like, okay, once I get past, like when you're studying for the test, once I get past this, I'll do that. Once I get past this, you know, I'll focus on that. Or once [00:23:00] I do this detox, I'll be able to introduce it back in.

Uh, those thoughts like that detox to retox. Um, yeah.

Steph: Yeah. That's my pattern and I talk about that all the time. Um, on my meetings where it's like conditional living in some way or another where it's like you wait for something to happen in order to really start living. So for me, at first it was actuarial credentials and it's like once I do that, then I can take care of my health or then I can date with purpose and have a social, you know, whatever.

And it's just expecting things to change once you hit these new milestones is. It's still hard for me to get out of that way of thinking, I guess. Yeah. And even though I know it's like your new normal, it doesn't like that that high doesn't last for long after you achieve something. I don't know. I just still think, I mean, you [00:24:00] totally picked up on it.

It's always been my pattern and you know,

Kevin: and mine too. I'm not,

Steph: I mean for sure. Okay. You have experience with this toxic pattern.

Kevin: Once I get, once I do this, then I'll be, then I'll be happy with myself. Then I'll be, you know, once I pass that test or once I, you know, do this at work or get this promotion or whatever, um, then I can relax.

Right. And, and that's just not how, it's not how things work. It's not that we, we don't get somewhere like, it was always like that. I don't know I always hate talking about happiness. Uh, 'cause I don't like, you know, people are like, oh, once I do this, I'll be happy. It's like, no, it's not about being happy.

It's just about, I mean, you might be in that moment, but that's not, happiness isn't something that carries with you, you know, for a long time. Like, I just wanted to be like content with myself for once, um, have a little joy that I could, you know, access more, more frequently. Um, and, and it's [00:25:00] tough, right?

When you're always chasing that once I get past this, once I get past this deadline, once I get past this, once I, okay, I'm gonna, I'm going to take a month off from alcohol and once I do that, then I'll be able to, um, Uh, as I would, as I used to say, then I'll be able to drink more normally. Um, or, or, or moderate or whatever.

And, and then what happens when I went in four days and, you know, drank during that month, like that, that kind of was like, oh, I, you know, I was like, oh, whatever it's not that big a deal. And I brushed it off and kind of just kept going with it. Um, so it's tough to kind of, it's very hard to, to face some of those things and to change that mentality.

Steph: Well, I was just, I mean, I like what you said about how, like, how like we can't really achieve happiness. Like even hitting these, like the certain goals that we set up for ourselves or whatever, like happiness is the process. And [00:26:00] I don't know why after I. Like, I don't know how this pattern that we're describing right now, I don't know how it was so hidden to me.

You know? Like I really did not notice that until a few months ago. Like after over a year of being alcohol free. Mm-hmm. Like that, like those, these toxic patterns that I held just, they just weren't, they weren't visible to me. And I didn't even notice how they shifted from like, the overworking to like the body stuff and the food and exercise stuff to the, like drinking stuff.

Like, I didn't even see that progression until recently. It's like bonkers how much my blinders were on. Yeah. You know?

Kevin: Yeah. And, and I think it, I mean it's, I think it's hard too because it, it's usually not like I. It's usually slow and gradual over time. Like this buildup, right? Our habits change [00:27:00] we, we go from maybe socially drinking, binge drinking, to maybe having that one drink whenever we get home from work because we're stressed or, or in another setting.

Um, and then that turns into two, you know, but it is just like, and I'm not, you know, for me it was gradual. It was like, uh, I don't know if it's from Hemmingway but like, how did you know? He says in the, I think it's the sun also rises. There's a quote where he is like, how did you go bankrupt?

And, and the quote is like, gradually and then suddenly. And I always think, think about that. 'cause that's kind of how my alcohol use showed up was, it was just gradual buildup over time. And then all of a sudden I had stressors that hit that, um, made it kind of just drop off that cliff, um, or spike up, whichever way you're looking, whichever graph you're looking at.

Um, and, and that's just so hard that to, but it, but you're right. Like whenever you actually work on something and [00:28:00] then you take a, take a look back, you can kind of start putting the pieces together and it, it makes a little bit more sense. And that helped me, I know on my own path to, to take a look at that and kind of almost, I dunno, forgive myself or, or however you wanna look at it for how it showed up.

Steph: Uh, I always like to honor. That part of my story too. Like I'm not proud that alcohol was my self medication or my only coping mechanism, but I think like, I don't know what would've happened to me if I didn't have that. Um, I don't think we really touched on a lot of like those periods of my life, but you know, in some ways it's like, I don't know that I would be here if I didn't have a way of escaping certain realities that I went through.

Um, and I don't know, I block a lot of that stuff out too. Like my memory of like childhood younger years and stuff like that is pretty fuzzy. [00:29:00] Um, but you know, there's all of that underlying trauma stuff too that that contributes to these feelings of low self-worth where you feel like you need to prove yourself or you feel like you need to, whatever.

It's like all of that comes from a place, you know, we didn't, I don't think we, like with autonomy decided that for ourselves. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Kevin: Yeah and that's definitely, I think like, I don't know, I mean, it's ingrained in our culture, right? I mean, it's always like more and more, more like, what's the next thing?

All these advances are supposed to make everything easier and more efficient. And it just, we still have all, we still have so much more work that that's always piled up and it's always there. Um, and not to keep talking about work there, but you know, I mean, it's just always that.

It's always something. Yeah. And it, it just fast-paced kind of Living for the next thing, or, or trying to block out the thing that I don't wanna think about and worry about. [00:30:00] So I mean, that's why I say like, you know, it's alcohol became my thing, uh, more and more over time.

But, you know, just everybody has a thing. Everybody has a thing. There's a handful of people maybe don't, and they're spread out and they're well balanced and self-accepting and all of that stuff. But, um, you know, so it's just like, you know, this was my thing and I had to work on it.

And, and like you said, like I'm glad as well that I had to go through this. I'm happy that alcohol was in my life. I can say that now looking back, right? Because it ma it forced me to change and, and that, but I wouldn't have said that four years ago. Um, it, it got me here talking to you. Right. And that's, that's kind of the things I think about, right? It's that, uh, you know, it, it forced me to learn new ways to cope because that was the only way I had before.

Steph: [00:31:00] Yeah. Yeah. And I like how you said too, it's important for people to realize that it is often gradual.

I think that's a lot of what some of us are trying to do out there with, you know, breaking the stigma where it's like, you're an alcoholic or you're a normie, or whatever, and it's like, well, no, no, no, no, no. Like this is an addictive substance. And human beings with enough exposure will get addicted to it to some degree. Yep. And you know, the emotional dependency, I think is sounds like probably where we both were on it. Um, but that's still very real. Like it's still a very real, dependency that we come across and it's just, it does sneak up on you and, you know, it definitely, it did for me too, and I don't, I remember I didn't think that quitting drinking was gonna be that hard for me.

Like, I remember distinctly thinking that because I had taken weeks and months [00:32:00] off at a time before, but when you approach it with, instead of it having like this hard deadline, which I always had, right? Mm-hmm. I always had that like detox to retox cycle thing where I'm gonna take a month off or two months off and see if I feel better and then I can start drinking again.

Like, that was always the goal. Like anyone can willpower their way through a month or two or whatever, but. When I, like the final time I quit drinking, it was like, I'm like, okay, I got some stuff going on here and I need to deal with that and approaching it from, why am I drinking in the first place? Like that was way, way harder than I thought it was gonna be.

Because of what you said, it's gradual. It creeps up on you. You don't realize you're using it as a coping mechanism. You don't realize that it's like your only go-to stress relief and anxiety relief, and the only time of day you allow yourself to turn your brain off. Mm-hmm. And you know, so you have to learn all of that stuff.

Like, [00:33:00] okay, I know stress is a trigger, but what does, how does stress even show up in my life? Yeah. You know, like, what does that even look like for me? Because how, like the, the one time I almost slipped was when I had this, like, I was just like getting it from every direction. I just felt super duper overwhelmed and I knew this, so I like booked a cabin by myself with one of my dogs up in the mountains, and it was just like an impulse. I went to pick up some snacks and I picked up some little like crappy boxes of wine, like the little ones. Mm-hmm. And I got to the cabin and I'm like, I know I don't want this right now.

Like, I know I don't want the alcohol, what do I want? And it's like, I just want this overwhelming feeling to go away. And then, you know, taking the time to recognize that space between even buying it and actually drinking it and saying like, what is it that I really want? And then you can kind of back [00:34:00] up, you know, you can back up from there.

Like, what was the last week like? What was the last two weeks? For me, it's like a month often where it's like if I don't tend to the day-to-day, week to week stuff, then it's all gonna feel like it's piling on, but. You know that, I mean, that takes a lot of effort. It takes a lot of self-awareness. It takes honesty, you know, like being really honest with yourself about, for me, just how introverted I am or like how many social things I can reasonably go to, or how I really can't do late nights.

It's not a thing for me. I don't do it. You know, I, if I do, it's planned a long time in advance.

Kevin: Well, you know, and you started touching upon, like, when you went about it without the deadline, right?

Without the detox to retox, how did that come about? Or how did that, how did you go about that change? Where, okay. It sounded like you, you were thinking like, okay, this is gonna be a longer thing. Um, I, I [00:35:00] don't know if you said, okay, okay, I'm not gonna drink again or what that was like, but do you wanna go into that a little bit?

Steph: So it was just becoming problematic in my relationship with my husband. He had talked to me about it a couple times and just like, there was like a Thanksgiving before I quit drinking. So 2021. Um, I definitely drank too much too fast and I mean, I was probably like drunk within a couple hours and he had a talk with me that night and then I I probably did the same thing where I'm like, okay, I'll take a few weeks off and, you know, try to moderate it and whatever. And the thing is, I was successful moderating a lot of the time, but what was going in my, he going on in my head wasn't healthy with it because that's not how I wanted to drink.

So maybe I'd have one or two while we're out, still able to [00:36:00] drive or something like that. But then I would wanna drink more when I got home. Yeah. Or it would give me anxiety to think like, can I drive or should I drive? Or how much is too much? Or how quickly can I drink this? And when is last call and where is the server?

My wine is almost empty. Like all of that is what would go through my head. And you know, looking back, it's like obviously that is that dependence that I'm talking about, but mm-hmm. So I, I could like, put on the show that I could successfully moderate, but there it was just chaos in my brain. And then what really did, it was Memorial Day weekend, 2022.

We went camping with some friends. Um, I, I just, I drank way too much, uh, out of that box of wine and got like, okay for camping. It makes sense. You don't want

Kevin: glass there. I, I like what you said before about the, you know, I didn't wanna know how much or, or whatever it was cheaper. [00:37:00] We were talking about that.

Like, um, yeah, I, I wouldn't, I would drink lots of different things and, but I always kind of had a box of wine there because I was like, oh, well, you know, if, I don't know, I can just, Add that into the mix and, and you know, it didn't count or something. I, I don't know. So yeah. I, yeah.

Steph: The lies, yes, the lies the lies we tell ourselves.

Yeah. It's just like my coffee mug. Yeah. I only have one cup

Kevin: of coffee. I'm the one with the sensible coffee mug today. This nice

Steph: small one You do, you're moderating caffeine effectively.

I,

Kevin: I will not lie and say that I'm moderating caffeine for sure.

Steph: Okay. Um, anyway, that night was really bad. I, I mostly blacked out. Um, all I remember is crying before bed and my husband asking me if I wanted a divorce because I was acting like I wanted a divorce. And, um, I, I still haven't [00:38:00] had the guts to ask him what happened, but in a way I already know, like I would have the, I call 'em episodes, like these bad drinking episodes, when I would just be like a raging bitch to him.

I would find some reason to be mean to him. Mm-hmm. And it's like, I felt like being angry and I'd find a reason to be angry and I'd take it out on him. This wasn't, it wasn't frequent, but it wasn't uncommon like that. It just, it happened and I really could be mean to him. And so, you know, I told him that night and this like drunken haze, like I didn't want a divorce.

And that's when I finally said out loud, like, I think my drinking is a problem and I'll. Like, I'll commit to not drinking until we have this vacation in two weeks. Um, it's like,

Kevin: I thought you were gonna say it like next year, two months. No, two weeks. Sorry.

Steph: No, I know. [00:39:00] Um, but I found the Reframe app and so I'm like, well, it could be different.

Like it could be different for me. We used an app to quit smoking like years ago, so I just started looking for this app, like an app to track my days or something like that. So I found Reframe and I took it seriously. Um, and then I went on that vacation and I actually did a decent, I didn't drink every day while I was there.

Um, for the most part, I had one, maybe two until the last day. Like the whole reason we were up in Michigan was for one of my best friend's weddings, and that was our last night there. I. Again, I got blackout wasted and that was like, I consider Memorial Day, the day that I knew something needed to change.

And the wedding was just really just sealed the deal for me, like, this needs to be more permanent. Um, because it, God, like I didn't get any pictures at this [00:40:00] wedding. I don't really remember it. There are people there that I will never see together in a room again. Like we all live in different states and there's children and you know, all of like these complicating factors where we haven't been in a room together in like 20 years and we probably will never will be.

And it's like I just, I forgot conversations again. No, like pictures, nothing. It, looking back, it's just, it really breaks my heart too because it's just sad that that's what it took to, to yeah. Decide to quit drinking. And I still don't say forever. Like, I don't know what's gonna happen, but I've done enough work now where I genuinely do not have the desire to drink.

Like anytime I wanna drink, it's to self-medicate and I never wanna go back there. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I like, one would never be what I would want anyway, so I, and I'm like super duper [00:41:00] happy without it, it, like, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.

Kevin: Yeah. So, yeah, same.

So one of the, the questions I wanted to ask too is with that change, so we're in the summer of 22, um, a little over a year ago. Uh, you know, so just curious what are some things that helped you, whether it was, you know, we talk, always talk about tools that we use or or just the, those like mindset shifts that we go through.

Like, what do you feel helped you along the way here?

Steph: Yeah, it's definitely evolved as I get further and further from my last drink. In the beginning, I, I attribute a lot of my long-term success to being almost a student of being alcohol free. The first maybe two, three months I was like reading and listening to quit lit, listening to podcasts, joining meetings, doing my tasks.

If there [00:42:00] was ever any doubt, I would go to bed early. I like listen or read a book. Um, I didn't care about trying to have a social life. I didn't care about trying to keep anything normal. I didn't try to introduce too much exercise. I didn't really do anything but like study this stuff. Um, and that, like I said, probably two months of that.

And I also I recommend that my clients do this too, but I also wrote a letter on that last hangover day after the wedding and I documented everything. I documented that Thanksgiving conversation. I documented the memorial day, how terrible I felt about treating my husband poorly. I documented the wedding, um, and then all the hangover symptoms and it was just like never again.

I never wanna be like missing out on parts of my life. I don't wanna do that anymore. I don't feel aligned with my values. I don't feel like I'm [00:43:00] being the person that I think I am, you know? Yeah. In the beginning it was a lot of that and I would go back and reread that letter where it was just like three pages of nitty gritty detail of how alcohol was preventing me from being the person I wanted to be.

And really outlining what happens when I drink. You know, when I think of that vacation, it's like, yeah, I had like a few good days in there where alcohol wasn't the main character and I didn't take it too far, but then the most important thing I blacked out for and missed out on all of that, like that is not successful.

Um, so that really helped with playing the tape forward. Like that is still, I think, one of the best and strongest tools that anyone can have in their toolbox. And I like to play it forward both ways. Like if I drink, this is what will happen. Like I always go back to that vacation, like maybe for a few days you'd have a couple and that would be [00:44:00] fine.

And, but like inevitably you will binge drink because that's how you like to drink. And then I'll play it forward if I don't drink. What happens if I don't drink when I have this craving? And it's like I can wake up feeling proud of myself and I won't have a hangover. So I'll be able to eat well and I'll have the energy to coach my clients and walk my dogs and go to spin class and I'll sleep really well.

Um, and I just tie it back to things that are more important to me than having a night of most likely just tuning out. Like that's usually what I would want is tuning out. Yeah. Um, and I mean those are like the most tangible tools that I would rely on directly, but a lot of the indirect stuff is like setting up a life that I genuinely want to live and be fully present for.

Like, that was a big part of it for me. So, yeah, I mean, I, I feel so [00:45:00] much more like confident and courageous being alcohol free and, um, you know, talking about like setting up my life in a way that I don't wanna escape or I don't wanna like tune out. Part of that for me was realizing that I haven't wanted to be an actuary for like, the past decade.

Like I probably never should have gotten those credentials. And while not everyone should just go and quit their job, like I've, you know, I've had my nutrition credentials since around 20 18, 20 19, something like that. I was working a business on the side until I got too sick to do it. And then, Going alcohol free has really opened up the opportunity for me again. It creates so much space when you remove that for me, when you, when I removed that substance, it created so much space in my brain, in my life, like actual time and I feel like my life is just fuller than ever because now I'm coaching on Reframe, which is [00:46:00] incredibly fulfilling. It's the community that helped get me sober.

So giving back to that feels amazing. And then I have the nutrition business on the side of that, and it's like, that is the biggest alignment for me because not everyone has that ability, that flexibility, um, the resources to, to make a huge change like that. And I recognize that, but it's like, work with what you can, um, you know, so that.

It's just so easy. It was easy for me to be like, meh, about a job that I was good at and had a lot of comforts and security. Like I could, I let go of just feeling like it was stealing my life force, I guess when I had alcohol to lean on for that. And then, you know, after about a year of being alcohol free, it was like, Nope, this, I can't, I can't keep doing this.

I will want to drink again if I keep living like this. It just isn't who I am.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.[00:47:00] I mean obviously I, I get that too with, um, a lot of the same feelings there related to previous work and I think you said before when we were talking, uh, before this about how like, You said that it, it forced you to get rid of the things that don't light you up, I think is how you phrased it.

That's so true. And it's like, okay, yes, I had this, , like you did, I had this, you know, I was a tax guy. You know, what's, what's more secure than death and taxes? Right. Um, and, same thing with actuary job. You just said like there's only 20,000 people in the world who, you know, had the credentials that you did.

You just realize, like what you kind of start stripping away those behaviors that allowed us to self-sabotage or to do the things that weren't lighting us up or, you know, that kind of thing where it was just, it started to slowly pull back the veil and realize like, yeah, this isn't what, [00:48:00] I didn't say this at the time, but it wasn't what like, lit me up anymore. Um, and, and, my slow process of getting into coaching and doing that was I, it just slowly started to be like, I, I looked at it, I'm like, this matters to me.

Like this matters and this matters to me. Um, whereas the other job just was great, secure, you know, but didn't as much anymore. Um, but that's a, that's a tough, you know, it's scary too to, I don't know that had I kept working there if I, if I was concerned, 'cause I worked there for about three, I was coming up on like three years after I quit drinking, uh, after I started my own process.

Um, So I had to make changes along the way, but there were still a lot of the same tendencies that I had and, uh, would cause me to look towards avoidance and all the, all those things in just different ways. Uh, but they weren't all productive, right? I mean, it's not [00:49:00] like, okay, I found all these tools and now I use all the productive tools now.

I mean, I mix in plenty of unproductive tools as well. Um, but that's fine too. Like, right? I mean, it's my unproductive tools now aren't, harming me and my body and my, my, my mindset and all that.

Steph: Right. Um, well I don't know if you ran into this, but I, my work performance started to fail at the end, and I was always a super high achiever, so that was weird.

'cause I like, could not make myself work hard at my actuary job. Like I, I did like average but that's like kind of below average for someone like me. So I would, I would say that my work product was starting to deteriorate because I just could not get myself in the head space to care or go even slightly above and beyond.

It's like, I will hit this deadline for this one thing, and then I'll probably go take a nap, you know? I just couldn't do it.

Kevin: [00:50:00] Yeah. I would say my, uh, my work product didn't go down my, I'll say my, I, I've never, I never said this phrase before, so I don't know if this makes any sense, but my life product went down, right?

It looked like everything else was suffering because, um, you know, 'cause I, I worked all the time and I was successful . I, I involved, heavily involved in all these projects and things like that. And I worked all the time. And drinking was my escape from that.

Um, but everything else was suffering. So, you know, I think that's, yeah, just thinking about it now, like that's, that's really, you know, where it came from. It, it showed up for me. Um, was like, oh, okay, well, oh, it's, you know, my daughter's soccer game early on a Saturday. Like, oh, I'll catch the one later today.

I'm not gonna go to this one. I'm, I'm hungover. I, I, you know, I had to work and I'm stressed. So I had a few too many last night or something like that. Like, it wasn't every, every time, but it was just [00:51:00] things like that, that showed up, that started chipping away at me.

I'll just say,

Steph: yeah. Well, and then it's easy 'cause if you, if you're overworking, it's so easy to make that the excuse like, I, you know, Because you could just as well been like exhausted from working too hard, even if you didn't drink. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But it's like, we can still just use that as a reason.

I was more talking about my work performance suffering after I quit drinking, like, oh, okay. Probably like six months. I, I quit drinking. Like I could not make myself do it. Okay.

Kevin: Uh, no. That Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I would say towards the end, whenever I was like, really going to transition into this, I was like, I was just like, oh.

That's when I was like, oh, I can't bring myself to care about this. I still did my job, but I was like, I just, yeah. I just, the care isn't there anymore. Yeah. So moving forward, after one [00:52:00] year of being alcohol free and that like, you know, how, um, how's your mindset towards obviously you're still not saying forever and that type of thing, but, uh, what are you, what are you involved in now and, and what's helping you now?

Steph: Um, oh gosh, so many things. So quitting the actuary job was a huge part of it. So now I'm on board coaching with Reframe, which is awesome. My passion is to help people, but I don't think that everyone can possibly realize how much the community helps us as coaches too. Not just, not just from like an accountability standpoint, but like it genuinely moves me every time I do a meeting and I'm like getting a little teary-eyed thinking about it because it's just so special to share the space with people. Yeah. And then to be able to like give back in that capacity on the other side of the Zoom where it's like I'm providing some feedback and [00:53:00] people are trusting me with their stories and with their shares and I don't know I'm just really passionate about being able to give back in that way and to this community specifically. Um, and then I also have like, I'm a nutritional therapy practitioner, so I have my nutrition business, the Sober Rebellion. So I used to work like pretty specifically with burned out women like I was like women's hormonal issues, chronic fatigue, stuff like that. Um, after about, I would say a hundred or so days, alcohol free, I was like, you know, I don't see a lot of intersection with recovery and nutrition. And I think that's super important. I mean, I know like Dr. Brooke was like used to do things with Reframe and stuff like that.

Mm-hmm. So I know there's some people out there doing it, but I'm like, I really think this is my calling. Like having people like level up their recovery through nutritional therapy, through these [00:54:00] like functional wellness practices that we can get into. And a lot of it is through life coaching, like giving you the permission to relax on your body standards or um, permission to rest when you need to instead of, you know, being this type a person who's always trying to produce and do and do and do.

And it's like, what would it look like to just chill? Like how much of your health conditions are caused by the stress you're putting on yourself? And you know, how can we like do the mindset work to make you feel worthy as you are right now? 'cause you are. So that's a big part of it. And then now that we live in the city, getting out in nature is a big thing for me too.

Like, I will get that, I will feel tempted to slip if I don't get out in the woods like once a week.

Kevin: Oh really? Once a week. Okay.

Steph: I mean, maybe not that. Yeah. But, um, and it's not like I don't think I would slip. It's just I start feeling that [00:55:00] like tightness in my chest that overwhelm where it's like everything is too much and I need an outlet and I don't have an outlet and I don't know what to do with all of this energy.

Like, and it just feels like just fire, like heaviness in my chest. And that's when I start feeling like I wanna tune out. Like I wanna tune out when I feel all of that on top of me at once. And the best way that I've found to get rid of it is to walk a dog somewhere and usually out in the woods.

Kevin: Yeah. And it's a, it's so important, right? To find that thing that you need, right? That that's positive like that and, and, that you're able, to take advantage of and, you know, work in those more positive coping skills, right, that we have. But the thing that, again, that lights you up, getting out in nature, getting out in the woods, there's so much benefit to that.

Uh, or just getting out and walking your dog around the block. If, if that's all you can do, um, yeah that's great.

Steph: Yeah, it's pretty, I mean, I, I guess I do keep it [00:56:00] kind of simple, but I would say like sleep is my biggest non-negotiable. Tired will always be one of my bigger triggers. And I think that comes like that, that heavy like chest feeling I was talking about.

I can feel that way if I'm too tired too. And so really, like dialing in sleep was really important to me. It's like super boring. Just like the nutrition stuff that works is super boring. It's like are you drinking enough water and Yeah. Like eating fruits and vegetables and stuff. But it's like, I don't know, we, I think we all want kind of this like magic bullet, magic diet, magic recovery plan or whatever.

Yeah. When it's like, yeah, not all of us need to, um, you know, to be really like implementing things that are this, intense or complete lifestyle overhauls. It just doesn't need to look like that for everyone.

Kevin: Yeah, I'm, I'm talking in two hours of one of our meetings and I think the topic's gonna be like c centered around patience.

Um, and like you [00:57:00] said, give yourself permission to rest and all that, give yourself permission to, it, it's not going to be like if you, if you go and you go to, Hey, I want to cut back, I want to quit. Like, whatever, whatever your thought is, like, recognize that, you have that thing in mind that this is what I kind of, I think I need to do right now.

But also it's going to look different. You know, when you keep going down this road and you keep working on it, it's going to look different than you expected. Take away the expectations of, Hey, I'm gonna do this in this amount of time. I'm gonna do it like this. I'm going to also do this, this, and this, along with it. Give yourself permission to just focus on this one thing. And if it's, you know, everybody talks about like, yeah, we give up or cut back on alcohol and, and the sugar monster comes, or, you know, those types of things that come in.

I'm eating all this sugar and all this. And it's like, okay, but that's, your body is craving that because you were eating all the sugar before it was just an alcohol. How can [00:58:00] you like, relax yourself and not be perfect and just work on it.

Find the tools that work for you.

Steph: Yeah. It's just such a quick recipe for burnout. I mean this talking about my whole cycle, like my whole entire life, the cycle that I was doing was this all or nothing or binge drinking and like it was like everything that was healthy and perfect and awesome and then that's just not sustainable.

And then I feel like a total loser and then I just drink it away for a while until I start it all over again. 'cause I realize I'm drinking too much. It's like, that isn't healthy either, you know? Yeah. Like that isn't, and I do think there's just this element of self-sabotage when you're someone who's more drawn to having these like high standards with yourself because it gives the illusion of control and it's much scarier to say, oh, I put everything into [00:59:00] passing this exam or whatever.

And then I failed at it. Like that's a lot scarier than saying, yeah, I tried, but I didn't try that hard. Yeah. You know, um, I'll try again next, next year, you know? Yeah. I'll try. Yeah. Next cycle, whatever, it'll be there. And, and I think that's kind of like extends to what you're talking about with like the patience stuff where it's just like, why do we need everything right now anyway?

Like, who told us that? I mean, I know it's the human condition and it's, I mean that, like social media does that for us too, or I think of like dating apps where there's like always someone new to swipe on or something like that. Um, but it's like, why can't we just be peaceful with ourselves and be accepting that, you know, if we're just.

Like cut out the low hanging fruit. Like if alcohol is the biggest thing that you're dealing with right now, whether you're looking to cut back, whether you're looking to [01:00:00] quit, like there's time for everything else. Yeah. Especially once you, especially once like the alcohol's gone, like so much space opens up and it's so hard in the beginning because you're not on that other side of it yet.

It is really a testament to willpower in trusting, like trusting the people that came before you, that it won't be like that forever. You know what I mean?

Kevin: Yeah. It's everywhere too, right?

And the fact that it's, um, whether I'm at home and I'm stressed and I have a drink, or we go out with people, oh, let's go to a bar. Let's do this. You're at the wedding, right? There's alcohol. You're at the one year old's birthday party. There's alcohol. Like, it's just everywhere.

Um, and so you're used to being in all these situations, whether it's with others, by yourself, dealing with this emotion or that emotion. If it's there, if that's been, the tool you've used, you have to recognize that it's going to be hard to start to unravel that.

And it's you and you might feel overwhelmed 'cause you're getting hit on all [01:01:00] fronts. So just focusing on maybe pulling back from, uh, social engagements, if that's how you drink or, or go, or being more social. If you drink at home alone and you can be more social, maybe try that or, just trying to work on, like you said, the low hanging fruit, but recognize that it's, it's not as simple as we might make it out to be in our head, because I, I was the same way. I was like, oh, I drink because of work stress, and so I don't know how I'm gonna get through the work stress without it, but, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it.

And, and then I stopped and I'm like, oh, shit, I drink because of every single emotion, every single thing. Like, it's not just work stress, I was fooling myself there. Um, but whenever I started I was like, okay, just do this. Just worry about this. Um, because this has, like I said, since it's everywhere, since it's hitting all of these different areas, when you work on this, it has that ripple effect out to your sleep, your nutrition, your nourishment, your exercise, your relationships and all that.

[01:02:00] Um, so yeah, focusing on this one thing can have so much more broader impact too.

Steph: Yeah, I actually don't recommend that people start working with me in nutrition. If they're someone in recovery either cut back or going alcohol free until they're like three, three or more months in, you know, trying to figure that stuff out because I just don't think it's smart to pile all of this other stuff on when you're trying to make such a big lifestyle shift in improving or changing your relationship with alcohol, like that will always be the most health promoting thing you can do, no matter how much sugar you eat. Outside of that, like, like giving up or reducing your alcohol intake is always the most health-promoting thing.

And so it's like you just don't want to be in a position where someone's trying to work on their hormone health or dial in their sleep a little bit more [01:03:00] and I see this all the time where like healthy routines get in the way of being healthy because they become a new addiction or a new, like rigid rules stressor Yeah.

Kind of thing. Yeah. A new stressor. Yeah. Where it's like, well, I'm supposed to be up before my alarm and then I have to drink the lemon water, and then I meditate, and then I journal, and then I have breakfast, then I go for my walk, and then I go to the gym, and then I like shower and get ready and go to work and whatever.

And it's just like, uh, okay. Like

Kevin: stress it out. Just hearing that list. Yeah.

Steph: But, oh my God. But that's like, not, that's like something that certain influencers will say is the way to start your morning. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, and I might and there's nothing wrong with that.

Kevin: No. And I might start my morning like that, but it, it's, it's been over a couple years that I've built up the things that work for me and figured it out.

Steph: Yeah. Exactly. I'm like, why don't you start with like five minutes? And just give yourself five minutes before you like, [01:04:00] look at your phone or whatever. Like, let's start there and see how that goes. But I mean, I think when you're looking at people in recovery from alcohol cutting back or whatever, I consider both to be recovery.

Um, we jump all in. Like it's, you know, we're diving into the pool and we like that intensity. And even, I mean, I said this on I think your Saturday meeting the other day, um, where we kind of get this high from the chaos like that, that gives us a little high. And then if we're not aware of it, then we can jump in like that into something like a morning routine or, um, some kind of nutritional plan or, or workout regimen.

And there's nothing like inherently bad with that stuff, but it's just like, You know, for people who maybe depend on exercise to, to keep them, [01:05:00] you know, in their alcohol free or their, like drink goals, what happens if that exercise is taken away from you? 'cause it happened to me and I'm dealing with an injury right now.

Yeah. So it's like, you know, making sure that that toolbox is really well-rounded, where you have maybe something creative that you, you know, something creative, something active, productive, vocational, I don't know. Yeah. Just like different categories that you can kind of pick and choose from depending on how you're feeling, I think is effective with that

Kevin: and using like that, like Right. The obstacle is the way, right. Where, okay I'm limited now in doing this, I might be frustrated with this, but what else can I do? What else do I want to do that, uh I know you said you might have done like your d pottery or, you know, different things like that.

So if I can't, you know, if I had surgery on my knee last year, can I get into something like that or, or some other activity that can help me, uh, versus being down that I [01:06:00] can't do this one thing over here.

Steph: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Uh, I'll probably will get back in the pottery studio. We'll see what the M R I says.

Kevin: Good luck with that.

Well, Steph, thank you for joining today, sharing your story with us, and, you can let people know where they can find you.

And also, this is the first episode of The New season I don't know if it's a new season or just this new segment of the re frameable podcast and just letting everybody, uh, know too, that you'll also be joining us as a co-host here, uh, this season. So, uh, but if you want to let people know where they can find you and share anything that you'd like at the end here, please do.

Steph: Yeah. So I'm most active on Instagram. I'm at the Sober Rebellion. Um, you can find me on my website, the sober rebellion.com. I have, um, a really nice freebie there that it's like a nutrition guide to [01:07:00] eliminating your sugar cravings. So if that is something that you're interested in, you can hop over there and I'm taking recovery clients through the Reframe app and then, um, nutrition clients through the website.

So thanks for having me, Kevin, and I'm looking forward to a fun re frameable season.

Kevin: Yes, thank you for joining and, uh, no, appreciate that and all that. I'll put in the show notes as well. And yeah, Steph, thank you for joining us today and sharing your story.

Steph: Thanks, Kevin. All right, talk to you soon.

Kevin: See you. Bye