Urge Surfing

Kevin: [00:00:00] Welcome, everyone, to another episode of the Reframable Podcast, the podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more. Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass.

This podcast is brought to you by the ReFrame app. ReFrame is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. My name is Kevin Bellack. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the ReFrame app.

Steph: I'm Steph Prangley. I'm a nutritional therapy practitioner and a recovery coach at ReFrame. Kevin!

Kevin: How's it going?

Steph: What's up? How's it going with you? It's been a while, a full week plus since I've seen you.

Kevin: It has been. I feel, yeah, I feel like it's been longer. Um, but, uh, yeah, it's, it's [00:01:00] going. We're, we're into September as of this recording.

And, um, and yeah, it's, uh, I've been looking forward to this month, uh, ever since about halfway through August. I always, I said, I was just like trying to get out of August and, and I did and. Yeah. Things are looking up a little bit here. How about you? Yeah.

Steph: Uh, yeah. And we learned something awesome that we're both Virgos.

We are. Your birthday is tomorrow. Yep. So we won't announce what day we're recording, so um, people might just think it's your birthday. whenever tomorrow hits for them.

Kevin: And then, yeah. Feel free to send me a message whenever this comes out to wish me a happy birthday.

Steph: And you can see who's on top of their, uh, reframe, Reframeable podcast listening.

Who's like staying up to date with it. Yeah. We know who the good students are.

Kevin: Yep. Um, so we're both Virgos. Does that mean anything to you? I don't follow that much or.

Steph: You don't, you're not into [00:02:00] astrology. Um, yeah, I'm not that into it either, but I think. it's an earth sign. I can't wait for someone to like pop into my DMs and be like, you don't know what you're talking about.

It's true. I don't.

Kevin: Well, it's funny cause I remember earlier this year, I think I was talking to my therapist about it cause it came up somehow. And I'm like, I, I, you know, I'm not into it. I don't say that it's not real or it doesn't have any validity or anything like that. I'm more on the Prove it to me type of thing.

And, and I'll believe it, but I went in and I'm like, look, I'm like, I searched for it. I'm like, okay, what, what, what are traits of Virgos? And I, it was like 14 things on the list that, um, you know, if you're a Virgo, this is, this is you. And 13 of those things were dead ass accurate. And I was like, all right, I don't like this game anymore.

Let's, let's, uh, let's stop this. So, um, but [00:03:00] I just proved it real quick.

Steph: Well, I feel like because. Your one thing was, prove it to me. I think that's like a Virgo thing. Okay. There you go.

Kevin: Yeah. I come from, uh, what is it? Missouri? Show me. Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I immediately went to, uh, my wife's sign and I was like, okay, I feel better.

Cause that's like, Not even close, um, but whatever.

Steph: But if you talk to people who are super into it, they would say that, like, is your wife's birthday on the cusp of another one? Because sometimes you'll be born in the wrong thing.

Kevin: That's true. Didn't think about that. It's

Steph: just, it's like further validating it.

Kevin: But, but again, it's like, that's a little loose for me. Right. I mean, I like things to be a little bit, as much as I talk about gray area with. With drinking and other things like certain things. I'm like, okay, but If I'm in that sign, I should be in that sign.

Steph: Um, [00:04:00] I get it. That's such a Virgo thing to say.

I'm not even kidding. Oh, we like our order and such.

Kevin: Yeah, I have a strong urge to. Yeah, the fact that we're both Virgos and you're a former actuary, I'm a former accountant.

Steph: Not a coincidence, my friend.

Kevin: All right. I don't like this game anymore. Okay, cool. Again. No, I'm kidding. Uh, that's funny. Yeah.

Steph: Good stuff.

Else's new. What's up? Uh, yeah, so we are recording on September 12th. I just got back from sober in the city in Maine and Portland, Maine. Um, it was cool. I got to meet other reframers. It was a smaller event. Uh, I think there were like 50 or so attendees. Um, Gill Tietz from, uh, Sober Powered was on like the Friday night panel, which was really cool.

It was hosted by the dudes who do Champagne Problems podcast. So like that for me was the [00:05:00] highlight. It was just cool to have. Like people that are kind of like celebrity to us, you know, just see him in real life. It was really cool. Um, and then I, I struggled with the event. Um, I talk about this all the time, how I'm just like an introvert and whatever.

I mean, going to an event like that, where it's pretty much all strangers and new city traveling, staying in a hotel. It's not my space. I don't have my dogs there. Um, you know, it's just. It's a perfect recipe for when, like, situations where I would have pre drank in the past, drank in my hotel room before going down for the first event, and stuff like that. I don't know if those kind of things are for me, um, it was nice to have, like, the comfort of a reframe, like, kind of click in there, but that also wasn't really the point of it, so, I felt, you know, in my comfort zone [00:06:00] with the reframe people, and then, you I was like, I should be like branching out and meeting more people and it's just this whole mind game where it's like, what, what am I even doing?

You know,

Kevin: I'm sure you're not alone there. I'm sure there are clicks of all of the different groups of people like reframe luckiest club, you know, whatever other types of groups might have been on there. Um, yeah. Yeah, I feel like that would, that would definitely happen and everybody would be thinking the same thing.

Like, Oh, I didn't meet anybody else outside the four people that I intended to talk to when I got there. Um, but no, that's, that's pretty cool. Uh,

Steph: That was cool. I definitely, I would recommend those events for people who are looking to like connect in real life. Um, Even though I knew a lot of people virtually, it's just, it's so different in person, it really was, like, super special.

I just, I think, I mean, I was up in Maine since [00:07:00] a full week before the Sober in the City thing, and I think I was just burnt out, and... Don't love traveling. I'm a homebody. And so just being away from my home is kind of stressful on its own, like, like stressful on my body.

Like, even if it's relaxing, I was at the beach. We like ate good food. Everything was great. It's not like I'm against vacation. I'm just kind of ready after like four or five days to come back home.

Kevin: Yeah, I get that. I mean, there's no place like home as a, as validity, especially having your own bed and having just all your own stuff there and not living out of a suitcase or, uh, things like that.

So.

Steph: Yeah, it was it was cool. I might do the Tampa one in February. Um, I just got to think about it. It's too soon for me to decide. Give it some time. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna recover a little bit first. And then, and then of course, I have knee surgery on Thursday. Um, I'm [00:08:00] really looking forward to being out of pain.

It's been, I mean, that's part of what was draining me at the event too. I'm just used to being really mobile and like walking around and being a tourist on foot and stuff like that. And I just had to deal with. pain. It was like, you know, some kind of stressor on top of another. If I wasn't in chronic pain, then maybe I wouldn't be as irritable trying to like meet new people or whatever, you know?

Kevin: Yeah. I mean, that definitely wears on you, right? That's definitely something that will wear you down and yeah, take you out of the mood to be sociable or other things like that real quick, uh, depletes that battery.

Steph: Yeah, I just. I felt like such like so grumpy the whole time and I don't think that really came across but then that's a whole nother thing because you're putting on a face that's different than what's aligning, you know?

Yeah.

Kevin: So. Yeah. Um, well hopefully this, with the surgery, it fixes you up and [00:09:00] you're back on your feet and pain free in no time.

Steph: I'm looking forward to it. So. All right. Shall we move on to shop talk?

Kevin: Uh, sure.

Steph: Or do you want to share something that's awesomely new with you?

Kevin: Uh, I always have the hardest time with this stuff.

Like what's new with me? Um, well, actually, now that you've mentioned that, I just remembered this Sunday, I'm going to a blue October concert with my daughter. So favorite band and Huge help for me. Like music's always been big for me, uh, over these past, like four years, four plus years, um, just as a outlet, as you know, the lyrics just have hit a lot differently on this journey for me.

And especially with. a band like Blue October, um, who is, is in recovery and, and, you know, you can see it, their progression over the years and their music too. Um, [00:10:00] but my daughter loves them as well. Uh, and I'm not lying with that. She's, she genuinely does like, like that. But, even though she, yeah.

She's, she's the concert goer. She's what she's been to Taylor Swift, Morgan Wallen, Zach Brown band recently. Um, but yeah, this one's just her and I, and we're driving about an hour or so away, um, Sunday night. So that'll be fun. And, uh, And yeah, we're just in full on school mode now, soccer games are going, uh, just traveled like two hours on Saturday, two and a half hours on Saturday to a game, which is always fun.

Um, but yeah,

Steph: soccer parents in the Midwest are heroes, uh, cause you get all the weather. It's like never good. You either have the rain in the spring and then you have the heat in the summer.

Kevin: We were at the game, uh, you know, I looked at the weather beforehand. I'm like, okay, it's 74 and [00:11:00]sunny. And we go down there and I'm in shorts and a t shirt.

And cold, like the wind was just constant and I was, the sun was out or I'm sorry, the sun was, it wasn't out. And I was just like shivering for the second half of the game. Like, uh, I'm like, yeah, this is not, I need to start packing a sweatshirt now it's that time of year.

Steph: You got to bring the layers, keep them in the car and gloves.

Kevin: Yeah, only, only here can you bring sunscreen, a winter coat and shorts and potentially use them all in the same, uh, the same game.

Steph: That's right. That's why we love the Midwest keeps us on our toes. Well that's cool. Concert with your daughter will be so fun. I, I know you've mentioned this band before. I need to check them out.

And you said that their music has like progressed over the years. This is that. Like, coinciding with their own recovery.

Kevin: Yeah, um, cause I think, uh, you know, [00:12:00] they were together in the 90s, and then have just kept, uh, going since then. And I believe Justin, who's the lead singer's, uh, was sober 2012, I want to say.

But yeah, it's definitely, you can definitely, if you follow like any of their kind of backstory or anything like that, you can definitely see it come through in the music. Um, and it just, yeah, it's just very powerful and good and exciting and just a great show.

Steph: That's awesome. Sober concerts are so much fun.

I've only gone to one and it was like, it wasn't early on. It was. I don't know, probably six months in or so, and I was like feeling a little nervous about it, but I'm like, Oh my God, I can remember details about this show. It's amazing. Like, I feel like every other concert I've been to, it's been either like a fight with someone [00:13:00] or I forget what the set was, you know,

Kevin: I've had plenty of those.

Yeah. Uh, this is actually my first sober concert was, uh, seeing him, the lead singer, uh, in his open book tour where he was just, acoustic by himself. Um, and again, that was with my daughter in that, uh, too. I just dragged her along to all of these.

Steph: That's right. I love it. All right. Anything else before we dive in?

Kevin: I think we can get to it.

Steph: All right. So we are going to do shop talk next. In this segment, we'll talk about a recovery related topic that's on our minds and yours. We hope to cover the topic from all angles and land somewhere actionable and helpful for you. And I just need to cut out this sentence, we will do our best to be concise.

But we're like, Oh, for a lot on that now, even our intro was longer than normal today.

Kevin: We're already [00:14:00] behind the eight ball here.

Steph: I know we can try though. Um, if you have a topic you want us to cover on the podcast, please send an email to podcast at reframe app. com. Or if you're on the reframe app, you can just give it a shake and let us know that way.

And today we're going to be chatting about urge surfing. So we're just going to talk through some strategies for moving through that overwhelming urge to drink. And we're also going to talk a little bit about how. Um, like our prevention plan and our urge surfing changes over time. Um, I've been going through this recently with, um, like my knee pain and stuff like that.

It's just been kind of moving more towards the top of my brain. And I found that to be kind of surprising. Uh, Kevin, before we hopped on, do you want to talk about what you were talking to me about with like the, like ranking?

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, [00:15:00] Cause how I, how I have always looked at this is, um, with my urges, let's say, since you're talking about urge surfing, like, or, or the, I guess the cravings or the things that make me want to have a drink, like those triggers that happen.

And for me, alcohol was always like first on my list as the tool that I would reach for, um, in order, you know, to fix craving stressor or whatever it is. Um, And, you know, as you go through it, you, you work on and you find new tools, you find new ways to cope. And, you know, maybe alcohol falls down to like second on your list.

Uh, maybe you do urge surfing is number one and we'll, which we'll get into. But, um, and then. You know, little by little as you add more tools, I feel like alcohol can start to fall down that rank of, of top things to help me get through this situation, let's say, um, and you know, and that doesn't mean though that just because it falls down to 10th [00:16:00] on my list that a particular stressor might move it right back up to number one, right?

Or number two, or, you know, just up that list. Um, because, you know, ultimately I, I, like I said, yeah. I feel like I always say alcohol is like 50th on my list right now. Like I have to get through 49 other things that I would do before, you know, that would even potentially happen. Obviously it's just a made up number, but, what I said was like last year, um, after my knee surgery, I talked about how alcohol jumped up cause the day after my surgery, I was in so much pain that, um, you know, I called my doctor.

I was trying to figure out what was going on, but I was like, literally like writhing in pain on my, on my bed because it was just. That surgery was just so bad that, um, and I ended up talking to my doctor and we worked it out and we figured it out and we, you know, I got it taken care of, but in that moment, it's like, I, I saw [00:17:00] the list, I saw it like fly up the list, uh, to like number six, um, or it was in the, it was in my head.

Let's put it that way. Um, it was there and it was, um, present, right? And I think, it's just, we have to work through, we have to figure, we have to see that different things that happen are going to cause us to, you know, crave or, or have a stronger urge to drink or stronger craving to drink. Um, so if we, if we kind of figure out.

This craving and, and, you know, push alcohol down the list because we have all these things that we can do otherwise, that doesn't mean that it won't pop up here, um, whenever pain or, uh, a stressor or a relationship issue or, you know, something else comes in. And it's just because. We haven't gone through that maybe, uh, yet.

So, you know, it's, it's a different list for all those things. Does that make sense? Did I, did [00:18:00] I feel like I, did I butcher that at all or is that good?

Steph: No, that was good. That made a lot of sense. Um, I'm wondering if, so what I've been running into with my knee situation and why alcohol's kind of moved up that list, it's because like a lot of my...

A lot of my prevention plan and a lot of, uh, like my coping strategies in general involve movement, and I don't have that right now. Like, did you feel that too when you were going through the knee pain? Like, you can't just go and drop and do like some push ups and, you know, go to the gym or whatever, you know?

Kevin: Yeah. That definitely was an issue for me. Like coming into that year, I was working out a ton and doing all kinds of things, but my knee was bad. And then I had a initial knee surgery in January, which fixed it a little bit. I was able to walk more, so I was getting back into that.

And then I had this bigger one in May. Um, and it did, it did limit, [00:19:00] it did take away a big tool of like, getting outside and going for a walk was, was something that I did, I was doing often. And because of that, like, it did, uh, I kind of tried to, Motivate myself to use like the, the daily stoic, the Ryan holidays book, the obstacle is the way, right?

Like, well, if I have this, if I can't go for a walk, what else can I build up and strengthen and all that? You know, how, how can I maybe read more or, uh, you know, do the thing, do other things to help compensate, um, for the fact that I can't do this thing. Um, it can help me, you know. Do some maybe meditate or things like that.

Um, mixed, mixed success with that thought process. Um, but it definitely did wear me out because I was eight weeks without, um, with a knee brace on 24, seven, except for a shower. Uh, so 23, seven, basically I, I had to wear this full knee [00:20:00] brace with limited mobility. Um, they opened it up a little bit more each week, but I started with like 15 degrees.

And, um, so that Dev had to sleep with it. It was to the point where at night, like I would be on the couch and I'd eventually take it off and put some ice on it while I was sitting there. And I like stayed up for like an hour longer, two hours longer, even sometimes because I'm like, I just can't put that thing back on like right now.

Like it was definitely, it wore, it wore me down that way. Um, so yes, that was tough. And besides that initial. Pain the day after where alcohol rose up on the list, like, yeah, I'm sure alcohol rose up on the list a little bit, but it wasn't like in sight. Have that been one month into trying to be alcohol free, that would've been a different story, right?

That would've been a lot tougher. Um, so again, you know, look at where you're at on your journey and don't beat yourself up if [00:21:00] it's something where like some of these huge factors are just can be overwhelming. Right. And we just have to work through it as best we can and keep going.

Steph: Yeah, agree.

Um, Yeah, because you were what, three, three and a half years alcohol free at that time? Just over three. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so good to provide that perspective too, because I'm like 15, 16 months alcohol free now. And This, it just really speaks to how it can always be there. And in that, in that panel on Friday, Jill was talking about like, she like demonstrated with a visual, like the neural pathway of like, we have this direct line of thought, like us to the drink.

And it's, I like to think of, um, like hiking paths in the woods or whatever. And so. You have this trail that everyone's hiking and it's nice and smooth. And like people move the sticks out of the way and whatever. And it's just this clear path to your destination. And then, I mean, [00:22:00] in real life, they like sometimes want to keep that restored.

So they'll like cover it up and you'll start doing a new path. And that when you have like logs to chop up and move out of the way and there's the cobwebs and like the plants and everything that's making it really hard to push through and that's our new neural pathway. But like that old trail is always going to be there.

That old trail, I don't think we can ever cover it up completely. That's like one of the definitions of. Like being a more problematic drinker, whatever you want to call it. We always know that alcohol will solve some sort of problem for us. Yeah. Like that's always in the back of our minds, no matter how far away we are from our last drink.

And you can, I mean, one of the biggest things that helps me is hearing people who have like extended sobriety, like 20 years who were like, Hey, let me give it a shot, maybe it's been long enough. And. All of them, all of them will say, you [00:23:00] know, it took me not that long. And I was right back where I started.

It just. Picked up right where it left off like that is really scary and I know that we support You know cut that track and stuff like that and I'm not saying that it's not possible for people But for me like for people like me That's I I always know that that that trail will be there And I know that alcohol can provide a maladaptive solution, but it's a solution at that like I know that it would temporarily Give me the feeling of escape that I sort of want when I'm sitting here in pain for six, eight weeks at this

Kevin: point, you know?

Yeah, definitely. That, uh, and like you mentioned, even like if you're cutting back too, like, you can still think about that, right? You can still think about those trails. And, you know, you can, you just might be a little slower to cover that old one up. Right. Um, and maybe, you know, everybody's [00:24:00] trail that initial trail might be a little bit more worn or less worn than others and things like that.

So, and it's. You know, what support do you have, like who are your friends you're hiking with that will help you along this new trail or are your friends trying to pull you back into, let's just go out back to the old trail. That's what we know, right? Like, you know, if you can, you can take that analogy and kind of run with it in a lot of different ways there.

Um, and you, you said about like that path is always there, right? It's. It can grow up as much as we want, and it can be covered, and you might not notice it, but if you look, you might see that little indent of, of where the trail was worn there, even though it's all grown up. And, you know, so that, that. That thought can still be there because alcohol is still around us, right?

Alcohol is still here. So, um, technically it is always an option, right? It is always there. And, uh, so unless we go to a desert island [00:25:00] where there's no, uh, there's no alcohol, it's, it can always be there. Be in our mind without even us wanting it to or just it's around, right?

Steph: Yeah, that's a great, um, extension to cut back because we're then we're suggesting, okay, like, your alcohol trail is, is one of them, but it's not.

We don't want it to really be a coping mechanism, right? It's something to maybe enhance your, environment you're in, or it's just a means of cutting back until you can safely, um, quit alcohol altogether. But, you know, what we're saying is, like, yeah, like, what are your, like, machetes, the friends that are with you, like, and how many different paths can you pave in this, like, forest that is our brain, right?

And, and where do the, like, That's what we're trying to do here. So, um, just minimize that old trail, but I don't know. I like, I like hearing that it, it [00:26:00] will, it just, it's nice to have that realistic perspective that, you know, you went through that when you were in in severe pain after three, three plus years, it's just nice to know that because it just supports how we need to like, make sure that we're.

Thinking about this stuff and it takes up less and less brain space, like you said, it's like 50th on the list now, right? Yeah. It takes up a lot less brain space, but. Not like just having that awareness, all we're talking about here really is self awareness and knowing that it can pop up and, and getting kind of curious about that.

Like, Oh, weird. Like, I don't, where did that come from? Like, that was my thing. I was surprised. You know, I didn't expect to start craving alcohol when I was dealing with this knee pain. I just didn't. Um, so, okay, well, let's talk about some of our favorite ways to move past our cravings. Um, these are all things that [00:27:00] we talk about in the ReFrame app and they are always effective.

And we can talk about maybe what our favorite ones are and if you can go into more detail about how you got through it with your, your knee surgery too. If it was like a white knuckling situation or,

Kevin: well, yeah. And, and I'd like to hear you, if you want to explain like actually what urge surfing is, like how you look at it now, you kind of go through it too.

Um, you know, just to, to talk through that. But yeah, with my knee, it was a white knuckling situation that night. I was home by myself I remember call my wife and being like, look like this is, this is not good. I'm taking the prescribed medication and, it's not even touching it. And so I don't know, she called the doctor's office and they, they, to have them call me back, but I was like waiting. I remember doing an inventory. I'm like, is there any [00:28:00] alcohol in the house? I just in case I, when I get to that point and, and I went through and I'm like, I don't think there was, but, um, but it was just that thing where my brain was immediately like, okay, yeah, I have pain medication, but I don't want Take a bunch of that like so I have to talk to my doctor I don't know if this is normal like what's going on and oh, I know what has helped this in the past pain And that's where my mind went doctor called back advised me on You know updated medications and things like that and and then after that night it was much more manageable and and it Wasn't that bad.

Um, but that in that time it was very, yeah, white knuckling. It was, it's a good word.

Steph: Yeah, that, I mean, I know sometimes it's like that, like white knuckling our way through [00:29:00] situations and cravings, but that can't really be our primary way of getting through, you know, urges and stuff like that. It just isn't sustainable for the longterm.

Um, so when I think of urge surfing, I mean, I know that there's like. A real definition of urge surfing. I put everything that kind of gets you through a craving or like that immediate overwhelming urge to drink. Like what you were just talking about, where you're in pain, you're alone in the house. Um, no one would know, maybe, I mean, you would know, but you might be able to do it.

You're in pain anyway. How is this different than whatever the prescription is? Like all of the games that you play with yourself. I think. Anything we do, including white knuckling, I would count as urge surfing in that bucket to make it through that. So, um, there is actual urge surfing, where you sit there and, ride the craving.

Identify where you [00:30:00] feel it in your body. And I do like this. I like it with emotions too, not just cravings. Um, like I'll feel tension or stress or cravings in my belly, in my chest, like my breath will get really short and, and like shallow, and then you just identify that, like, okay, I have a craving for alcohol right now, where do I feel that?

And I might feel it. I might feel like on edge. So like energy and my fingers and my toes and like your leg starts bouncing. And then you just kind of say, okay, like that's how this craving is presenting to me and you just pay attention to it. There's no judgment. And I'm actually like shaking my knee right now just to kind of like pretend.

Um, and then I don't know, then you can just. like sort of ride this wave, like, is it moving in my body anywhere? I'm just bringing attention to it. I'm going to take some deep [00:31:00] breaths. I'm not going to try to think about it. I'm not going to try to not think about it. I'm just going to let it be. And it's really just like a mindfulness kind of technique.

So that's like kind of the basics of urge surfing. Um, It is like strictest definition, but then we're going to get into like other ways that we can make it through triggers and cravings too.

Kevin: With urge surfing, I was very, I know when I used it, I was very literal and I, I kind of combined it with visualization. Um, and I pictured myself because, you know, I, I, you surf the urge, you surf the wave, right? And the wave goes up and then it increases, increases, increases, gets bigger, bigger, bigger. And then it, but every way of crests and every way of falls and goes to shore. Right? So just like every urge, every, you know, so by picturing that, And I would always put myself on a surfboard in my head on a wave, never [00:32:00] surf before in my life.

So I made it as ridiculous looking as possible in my head and try and just, and pictured that and picture the waves come because, you know, the waves are gonna, you know, potentially keep coming. Sometimes they're faster sometimes. And that's just, you know, I don't mean. necessarily like all the time the waves are just coming, but over time, like there's always a wave that's going to come in.

There's always going to be something. And like you said, with emotions, it's not necessarily a craving to drink. It can just be this stress this, you know, so how can you ride that out? Um, And I would always combine that kind of with something like, I didn't say, I didn't use this. I don't, I kind of just had thoughts around it, but it was more, it was basically the gist was this too shall pass, right?

Like riding that wave. I know it's going to come in and I would just keep doing that until I kind of would calm down, breathe and then go to some other, um, tools too.

Steph: Yeah. I [00:33:00] would consider urge surfing to be sort of an advanced technique too. It's really hard. Well, I think all of these tips can be effective at any stage in your journey, but I would consider urge surfing to be a little bit more advanced because in the beginning of becoming alcohol free or going cutback and like reducing your alcohol consumption, you don't have as much space between Like the impulse and your reaction like that's something that grows like you learn how to grow that space and so one of like one of my favorite things to do for that like when you don't have like when you don't have that kind of.

space in between the impulse and, you know, the drink or whatever. I really like keeping a task list of things to do. That's like five to 20 minutes long or even longer. Like I redid my office my first couple of months of being alcohol free. Um, but [00:34:00] every day I would sit down and like do a rendering or order something from Ikea or do some design element or whatever, but also like the closet got organized and then that drawer in the bathroom got organized and stuff got thrown out.

And then, you know, like I just kept a list of all of these little things I could do that were varying degrees of time and. Um, I don't know, commitment and that does a couple of things. First, it's easy and you can quickly distract yourself and do something with your hands, like keeping your hands busy.

Secondly, usually there are things that are like on your to do list anyway, but you never feel like doing them, like talking about cleaning out my closet or whatever. And then Third, it gives you a, it starts rebuilding that dopamine because our brain really, really likes the feedback of having something to do and then crossing it off or checking it off like that, that activates our reward system.

So It sounds [00:35:00] so freaking basic and most of these are, but it's because they're effective and like the task list was especially effective for me when I quit smoking, but I did it when I quit drinking too.

Kevin: Yeah, I think the, I think the phrase simple, not easy applies here, right? Yeah. I mean, with everything, I think it's, everything's simple, but it's, it's doing it.

And, you know, you're right. Like in the, in the beginning of our journeys, like whenever we're trying to figure out these tools or figure out what to do, there there's a short window of that impulse to action time. And, and we have to work to grow that. And, and you mentioned white knuckling it. I kind of referred to that before as, or, you know, myself as like gritting through it or.

Willpower, right? And I hate willpower as a tool. It is a tool. Um, but it's a, it's a finite tool. Like, and that's, that's what I used to try and I hate it because that's [00:36:00] what I used to try and use and to just get through the times I said I wasn't going to drink. I was just going to white knuckle it through, grit through, use willpower, whatever, however you want to look at it.

And it. Willpower is not a good tool. It's, it's a necessary tool to have to be able to just increase that, that gap from, from that impulse to action just a little bit so that you can throw another tool in there. Um, and because willpower is, you know, proven to. Deplete over time, over the course of the day, like you were talking about your battery with like travel and that, and by the end of the week, you were just totally drained, right?

I mean, over time, like all these things that we do during our days, um, depletes us and, you know, by the end of the day, that's why by the end of the day, we can get there and be like, F it. I'm just gonna have a drink because our willpower is gone and we don't have, perhaps, a great plan in place yet.[00:37:00]

that's where, like, a lot of these tools then come in and, and it's so important to Practice these when we don't need them and think of these when we don't need them so that we just have at least an idea of something that we can pull out.

Um, so what are some of the, of these tools that, you know, if you want to go into some of yours that, uh, were helpful?

Steph: Yeah. So, um, my favorites are always play the tape forward and halt, um, halt. I like my biggest triggers in the halt family are, so that's stands for hungry, angry, or anxious. lonely and tired.

And so a lot of times when, especially a physical craving comes in, you can kind of go through those letters and say, all right, am I hungry? Am I angry or anxious? Am I lonely? Am I tired? And then like part of what we suggest you do, like Kevin said, ahead of time you plan for that. So, I mean, when I'm hungry, I'll eat [00:38:00] fine.

But when I'm anxious, when I'm angry, I will, you know, like punch a pillow or call a friend or whatever. Um, so having that stuff planned out ahead of time. So you just like quickly take inventory and then you have a plan from there. So I know from experience, hungry and tired are my huge physical triggers and halt.

Um, I can plan ahead for that, especially traveling. That's very, very important when I travel. Um, I can't control like airlines being delayed and flights being canceled and stuff like that, but I can make sure I have my own healthy snacks. I can have a plan for the airport, like, you know, I don't eat or like, like I don't drink like sugary drinks that much, stuff like that, but I'll get like a fancy coffee from Starbucks at the airport.

I'll get, you know, pastries, stuff like that, like stuff that feels super special. Um, but I still have all my healthy stuff too, and I'll make sure I [00:39:00] eat really well the day before, the morning of, whatever. Tired can only control so much of that too, but I can sort of plan throughout the week, like if I, this isn't just travel, but like if we go to a concert or something like that.

Um, you know, how can I prepare for that a couple days in advance, um, even the day of. Can I get a nap in that afternoon? Just making sure that I'm sort of. Taking care of that ahead of time, uh, the best I can. So that's, like, one of my favorite things. And then play the tape forward. I mean, I think it's probably everyone's favorite where you just visualize, like, what happens if I drink? Uh, and it's always our brain saying, like, I'll just have one. Okay, what happens when I have just that one? And then play it through, whatever is true to you. Um, and then I like to play it forward on the other way, too. Like, what happens if I don't drink?

What [00:40:00] happens if I, you know, Go to this concert and I decide not to drink or I go on vacation for the first time, not drinking and actually do that for the whole week or whatever. How does that look? If that feels too big just for today, like how does it feel arriving in Mexico at this all inclusive? What, what will it feel like?

What will it look like? How will I feel tomorrow if I don't drink? How will I feel tomorrow? If I do drink? Um, and I get really like, Detailed, I like to think about all of the fights I caused with my husband when I was drinking. Um, you know, I, the times that I have had one or two drinks, how hard that was on me, how hard that was on my brain, how much effort that took and how hard it was like, Like, we might go out to dinner, I have a drink, come home, and I'm ready to have a bottle of wine.

Like, that was my reality. Even if I didn't have it, [00:41:00] that's what I wanted, and that's scary. Like, it's scary for me to think about that now. So, those are kind of my two favorites, and the ones that I use the most.

Kevin: Yeah, that's definitely on. That's definitely high up on my list as well. Both of those.

Play the day before word. Uh, halt. Um, and yeah, like I always added, um, like hungry or thirsty, angry or stressed, lonely or isolated. Tired or bored, um, doesn't really actually, I think it was a Millie Gooch, uh, sober girl society book. She had one. I think the acronym was halt bitch. So I, I can't, I'm guessing boredom isolation.

Uh, I, I don't remember what the acronym exactly stands for now, but. The way I look at it, I like that because hungry, angry, lonely, tired, what is that? That's just, that was me telling myself, like, what does my body [00:42:00] need right now? Does it need food? Does it need rest? Does it need to calm down? Does it need, um, To to connect with somebody and so asking, what does my body need?

Because if you go through halt and you're like, no, I'm not any of those things. Okay. Well, what is it that you are looking for? What is it that your body is trying to solve? And your brain goes to alcohol. Um, and answer that question. Uh, More in depth, and that's part of one of my big things was I always said I would get curious about it.

So I I'm always big on journaling and my journaling came about because I. Started with a therapist and I was able to message through the app I was using and that's how my journaling started because I was for the first time ever dumping thoughts into, uh, this medium and sending it to somebody else. And it wasn't even [00:43:00] about the sending.

It was just, I was dumping these thoughts out of my head and then I was like, Oh, well. Let me get this other app and, and, and put it in there. And then if I want, I'll, I'll copy it and paste it and send it, uh, to my therapist. Or I even copied and pasted and texted it to my wife who was sitting on the same couch.

Cause I was like, read that. Let me know what you think. That's what I'm thinking right now. But that was a finding. That was me finding a way to communicate. With her in a way that was comfortable for me because I was always like, I'm fine. I'm okay But by writing it out it was able it was from I was able to dump it out of my head look at it See it more concretely and do something about it or at least see it for what it was maybe versus just having it up in my head just swirling around and Not having a clear picture of it.

So journaling and writing that out, getting curious about it. Like I would ask myself, like, where the hell did this come from? Like when I, when I could, whenever the craving, whenever I [00:44:00] had a craving, my hand would go to my pocket to pull out my phone and start typing like that became the habit because I did it so frequently.

Um. When I had a thought like that, and by doing that, I was able to learn more about, like, where did this come from? And it wasn't just some abstract, like, oh, I was stressed today at work, and that's why I wanted a drink. I was able to dive in and be like, no, it was because so and so... Did this or said this, okay.

Is that going to repeat itself? No. All right. Well, I have to get through this and that's fine. If it was going to repeat itself, like something that could happen again and again, how can I change that or how can I approach it differently? Um, so that was kind of like the in depth. Tools that we're helpful for me.

Now, that being said, uh, every, every time I had a craving, I did not always want to be like, Oh, let's get curious about it. My mind was like, screw you. I want to drink [00:45:00] that's not going to work. And that's when I had to find like these other, these other things, whether it was talking to somebody talking to my wife, just saying like, Hey I need, I need to, you distract me for a while, uh, whether it was, you know, food, uh, you know, cause I was, maybe I was hungry.

Maybe I did identify that I needed something. Um, and I kind of had to laugh because you were talking about planning for things and taking good snacks and all that on. I, I'm, I'm the guy that's planning for things. I'm like, all right, I need the Swedish fish, uh, I need candy in there just cause I want that sugar hit.

Um, you know, that was my plan early on for sure. Uh, now I'm going to the airport and I'll pack some, uh, some healthy, healthy snacks or pick up some healthier things. Um, but I always go for the candy if, uh, if the urge is, uh, if the urge was strong, that was my comfort. Um, and, you know, that worked for me, um, [00:46:00] you know, the, that, and I, I, I had a specific episode of The Office that I would turn on, uh, and just veg out on the couch and I knew within five, I knew within two minutes I was going to be laughing my ass off.

Don't care how many times I've seen it, uh, that episode was just the one that I would always go to because I knew it would get me out of my head for even 20 minutes to watch that. And as we say, the average craving lasts 20 minutes, but it gave me that space, right? And I didn't have to sit there and turn on the TV and think, like, what am I going to put on?

What do I want to watch? Because if I go down there right now, and I'm like, what do you want to watch? We'll sit there for 10 minutes and be like, I don't know, like, I'm not in the mood for that. And, you know, so I had, I picked a specific thing that I could just boom, turn on, have teed up and ready to go.

Playing the tape forward, uh, was big though. And I liked how you did it with the, um. If I [00:47:00] drink, this is what's going to happen. If I don't drink, this is what's going to happen. Uh, I think that's so helpful to look at it from both directions.

And, you know, that, that's... That comes in, I think, if you're cutting back, right, whenever you reach that target number, right, that's when you reach that target and say, okay, well, I said I was going to have two tonight. I had two. I really want that other one. But then how can you introduce? That play the tape forward, how can you have that plan in place to call the uber or go to bed or, you know, do that thing that, uh, that's, that's where planning ahead and just not saying, uh, I'm going to stick to two tonight or in the case of being alcohol free, I'm going to, I'm not going to drink tonight.

Right. It's like, okay, what do I do though? In both of those situations, what do I do when someone else pressures me? What do I do when? Uh, I pressure myself, you know, one of those things, where's my eject button that I can [00:48:00]push and, you know, get out of that situation. And those were kind of, so I feel like I bounced around there a lot, like.

The urge surfing, the playing the tape forward, the getting curious, those are things like in the moment that I would do, um, when I had a craving to drink or whenever I had a, a stress, uh, stressor come up, um, and then these other things, this plan that I put in place is what I would do with that information.

I would take that then and the next day I'd be like, okay, yeah. If this happens again tonight, or I would look at tonight and I'd be like, I might run into this again. Okay, well... Went well with that. What didn't? What would I change? Um, and use that information.

Steph: Yeah, I, I mean, the curiosity thing is so, so important and I'm with you.

Sometimes it's like, you just have a craving and you don't feel like doing the work around it. [00:49:00] Like, that takes a lot of brain power too. And I think of like, Like, when you're just exhausted, burnt out, like, whatever. That's why I like the task list thing and like these simple things. And that's why the Reframe app is so effective and what you did with your journaling app.

Because, you know, if you can at least interrupt your thought for like, Five seconds and pull your phone out. You can go on reframe. You can look at the toolkit in there with all of the great like mindfulness activities and affirmations and games and like the whole craving section we have there or if that's not your thing you can just go to the forum and even use it kind of like you did your journal like Sometimes when we just say these things, they lose their power.

Like, yeah, I mean, the last time we chatted and I talked about how I've kind of been romanticizing alcohol, it got better after that. Like I didn't feel as, it just didn't have the same kind of power as it did when I was sitting with it in my own body. And like, you're talking about that with journaling, [00:50:00] like getting it out of your head and into your phone or onto a piece of paper or whatever it just.

It shifts you physically. And... Yeah. I mean, I, again, the simple, not easy, but that curiosity is really good because it gets you thinking about how to prevent it because ideally, like these things will come up shore, but you know, we don't want drinking to be at that one or two spot. We want to push it down.

We want it to take up less space in our life. And we do that with like a solid prevention plan, not this like urge surfing thing. But in the beginning, and when we have these stressors hit. It's important to keep the stuff to have a plan, like to have a, like a, yeah, to have your favorites to go to. So.

Kevin: And cause we want to keep encouraging us to go to that new trail, right.

That you talked about before, we don't want to, okay. We put some logs over some, some brush over the old one, but if we keep trampling on it. You know, and it's gonna [00:51:00] keep being warm, but that doesn't mean we can't keep putting brush over. We can't keep trying to go to this way, right? I mean, it takes that time to transition.

Um,

Steph: so I think the most important question is what office episode?

Kevin: Funny enough, I believe it's called stress relief. Part one. It was the fire drill. Um, I believe it's stress relief. Part one is the name of it. Um, can't remember which season I want to say like four or five, but, uh, yeah, the fire drill is the, I almost got a tattoo that says save bandit, uh, from that episode.

I even had my wife on board for it. Bandit is the cat, that falls through the roof, uh, the ceiling towel. Um, but, uh, Yeah, so. That's a

Steph: good one. Yep. Is that when they do they do the roast in that one? Or is that a different?

Kevin: Uh, that might I think that's stress relief part two. I think that's the next episode.

Yeah. That's

Steph: funny. Yeah, those [00:52:00] are good. Um, yeah, my favorite line from that one is when Dwight's like, it was my fault. I used PowerPoint.

Kevin: PowerPoint's boring. Yeah. Yeah. With the CPR, yeah, dummy, I have a, I have a t shirt that says CPR certified and it's, it's Dwight with the, uh, CPR dummy's face

Steph: on. Yeah.

Getting all Hannibal. If

Kevin: you haven't seen this, like, I don't want to go into too much detail. If you haven't seen this, it doesn't make sense, but check out, check out the, uh, first five minutes of stress relief part one. If you, if you Google, I think if you go on YouTube and look, uh, the office fire drill, that's, that's what I watched.

Steph: Yeah. That's a good one. Um, so I think like something I did want to touch on before we hop off here is just how this urge surfing changes over time. And we did get into it. So like, I would say in the beginning, you're doing more of a distraction kind of game and starting to. [00:53:00] You know, just to reiterate, like create a little more space between like the impulse and the reaction and so whether that's, you know, keeping that task list of things to do, going on reframe, getting a journal app, calling someone, going to a meeting, if it's available, just connecting in the forum, anything like that, anything that's just like distracting and with your hands, that's going to help you and then, yeah.

Like the urge surfing itself, this curiosity thing that we're talking about, you know, you can kind of urge into that urge. You can, um, sort of move into that. That space, as you get a little bit more experience, it's not like you can't use halt or anything like that. It's just going to be a lot harder to, um, to actually execute on like what my body needs right now.

You're not going to feel like taking a nap maybe, or you're not going to feel like, [00:54:00] you know. Or you might not

Kevin: be able to, right? I mean, you have to be at work. Or you might not be able to. Right. Yeah.

Steph: Yeah. And so, I don't know, I think there's just like a certain amount of evolution, but I mean, you heard, like, Kevin had to rely on willpower at one point.

It's just, and that's, like, Okay, because it was this one isolated incident in like, however, many years, you know, you can, but we just can't use willpower or the white knuckling technique as our primary tool.

Kevin: Yeah. Um, because, you know, a good example of like early on for me was, uh, driving home from work.

Like I would always listen to a podcast or. book, quit lit book. Um, and that was kind of my, that was my meeting on my way home from work that I, that's what I considered. I'm like, hear people's stories, listen to, listen to stuff. And it kind of, it kept me focused on what I was doing. I didn't want to drink that night.

And, and, and more importantly, I didn't want to make a left [00:55:00] off of Lake road into, um, to the, to one Plaza. Um, but sometimes as I got to that road where I would make a left instead of going straight, you know, I'd be like, uh, I kind of want to kind of want to make that turn. But my next step, my next escalation would be to call my wife and be like, Hey, what's up?

And I would just talk to her about anything and, and, you know, just to kind of distract myself to get through. Uh, if she wasn't around, then what? Okay, well. The book's coming off and some kind of loud music is going on. And if it was winter, even better, cause I could roll it out, roll down the windows and just get hit with the cold, right.

And just kind of get me to get through that. And then. But I might've had to just kind of be like, you know what, you're just going to keep driving. You're going to use willpower right now. None of these things are working, but it's having like, I learned over time that, okay, I like to listen to [00:56:00] these, this stuff on my commute, but that doesn't always work.

So what else can I do? Call my wife. What else can I do? Play her music and scream, you know, Metallica at the top of my lungs, whatever. Um, but right. Having those different, having those different options, including willpower in there, um, is going to be. Important. But again, that's over time.

Steph: We learned that and sometimes it's just temporary willpower.

Like I think of that. I was in Hawaii in January. It was my first alcohol free vacation. I didn't do a good job with the hunger thing. We like hiked this volcano. I was starving. It was like our last night on the big island. So we had, you know, a nice dinner plan, stuff like that. So we like got ready everything again, like no, not enough food that day.

And I got to the restaurant and I was like, I ordered a glass of wine, like I almost slipped. I like talked myself into it too. And then I finally was like, you know what, I'm going to wait until we [00:57:00] have our appetizer and like, and then I'll decide, then I'll decide about this wine. Like, I just like. put it off to the side.

And like, I'm not suggesting this. I'm just saying like, sometimes all you have to do is like postpone it, like give yourself permission to postpone it. And like, that worked with me with smoking too. Like, I think I've said this before too, where at night you get cravings just like alcohol. And then I would just say to myself, okay, if you still have this craving in the morning, then you can go and buy a pack of cigarettes.

And like, And I would never want to smoke in the morning. And then eventually, you know, after a week or something, it doesn't take long with nicotine. Um, you know, it was just that like that intense craving wasn't there anymore. And it was the same thing with the alcohol. Like I had the appetizer and I was like, yeah, I was just hungry.

I don't even want this wine. Um, and I know that's not everyone's experience. Of course, I just had my husband drink it, um, and like move it away from [00:58:00] me. But. It doesn't have to be like, like in your case, like the drive home. That's what I was thinking of. Like, okay, if I, maybe I convinced myself to get home, have a snack, do some pushups and sit ups and play with the dog, and then I can come back to the store.

But it's just, it's like a way of using temporary willpower to almost like distract and interrupt yourself. And then you'll find that it's easier to get through after that, those things happen. Like that's what I'm trying to get across here.

Kevin: Yeah. And, and that temporary willpower, you know, that might feel. Somebody out there might be like, Oh, well, good for you and your temporary willpower, right? Because guess what? It's five o'clock right now. And I'm listening to this and I'm going to have to use willpower until I go to bed at 11. And I get that, but you don't, that's where, what can you put in there?

And, you know, cause I felt that way too. Like a lot of the times I would drive home and I would, if I had to, [00:59:00]Get through that and I get home and then once I got home, the feeling was still there, but I, but at least I was home and I wasn't driving past there. Um, and then I was like, I got to still do some work and I'm stressed and I got, so I go do that.

And then it's seven o'clock, seven 30. And, I'm just still feeling it's still on my mind. And that's when I would, we don't always have this option, like you alluded to before. There were plenty of times when I went to my wife at a toddler like bedtime, um, of let's say seven 30 or eight o'clock or seven and, and just be like, do you need anything else for me tonight?

And she'd be like, no, she's upstairs doing her homework. I'm not doing anything. I'm like, okay. I'm going to bed. Um, and I would just go to bed. And if I was kind of awake, so I would read or, or just do something, but I'm like, I'm going to bed because if I sit out here and think about it, I'm, I'm gonna, you know, drive myself nuts.

[01:00:00] Um, so how can I. You know, put myself to sleep instead of, uh, and that wasn't always easy, right? Because then you can sit in bed and stare too. So again, finding the tools that work for you. Um, maybe, uh, maybe if you take a bath or a hot shower to kind of calm you down or a cold shower to, to kind of get you through that, to that state change.

Um, but I would go to bed and I would wake up the next day and, and. Never regret that decision. Um, so yeah, versus staying up till 10 o'clock, like I maybe would have on any other night and, and struggling through it. Right. So how can I just cut that night short? How can I cut my losses and just be like.

I'm done today.

Steph: Yeah. And that's temporary too, cause I was going to bed probably in the sevens and I wasn't going to sleep. I was just like, I had really bad fatigue the first month or so I gave up alcohol. So I would go to bed. [01:01:00] I had audio books, I had podcasts downloaded and I had like physical books to read.

Um. Most of our problems can be solved by taking a nap or going to bed early like that. I mean, that's just a very effective strategy. And I know a lot of people who are earlier on are worried that it's going to be like that. It's not like that forever. I mean, I would say a couple weeks, I, it was probably a month, a month and a half for me, some people, it takes more time, some people less, but I would say you get out of this catatonic state and a week or two, um, and then once you're through some of those like physical symptoms.

Your urge surfing and prevention plan and stuff becomes a lot easier. It's just a lot of going to bed early in the beginning

Kevin: Yeah, and and for me, I only use that go to bed a couple times in the in the first whenever I first started [01:02:00]Because I had More energy quicker like after a week, I had more energy.

I felt better. But then as the month progressed, then I worked on cutting back and trying to figure out what I was, where I was going with all this. And then I started again. And at the end of April, that time was a little bit different that time. I was, I was struggling a little bit more. So, you know, it's just different with everything you have going on and recognize that our bodies need to recover and rest from reducing or removing.

Alcohol, I mean, it's going to take time, um, but it's not going to be forever. Like you said. Um, Yeah,

Steph: that's the most important thing because, you know, you, I see people that are early on in the journey and, or they've just started cutting back or started giving up alcohol and they're like wanting to do this birthday party at a VIP room in the club with their.

besties that they get wasted with and whatever, and try to justify it with, well, I don't want to just withdraw from my social [01:03:00] life or whatever. And it's like, you don't have to, but you don't have to put yourself in that situation like day six, you know? Yeah. So it won't be like that forever, but you might want to be a little discerning about what you say yes to for a while.

Kevin: I think it's having that perspective of, you know what, this isn't going to last forever, but guess what? Your besties will. Invite you again, if you skip this one, right? I mean, that kind of thing where you just have a little perspective and on more of a long term scenario versus, well, I'm not going to change the way I live because, you know, I'm not going to give up my social life.

Okay, you don't have to give it up, but you might have to adjust it a little bit as you recalibrate.

Steph: Yeah, definitely. That's a topic for another time. But I, I mean, but it does tie into this because I don't know. You do need different, different tools for different seasons of the journey. But I think what we covered today is effective [01:04:00] for like anyone at any time.

Um, it's just again, like the figuring out what works for you, which might be our tip of the week. We did not think of a tip of the week, but do you want to come up with

Kevin: one? I have one. Okay, good. Uh, yeah, I haven't, uh, my tip of the week and it plays right into that. It, my tip is try everything, uh, because you know, it's never one thing that works in every situation like we talked about.

And so if we try as many things as we can and, and truly try it, like don't dismiss things because, uh, you know, I, I always like to throw out, like have that beginner's mind, right? Don't put pressure on yourself to know how to meditate, to know how to journal, to know how to do yoga right away, or to be good at it or feel good at it.

And with all of those things, like take away the good and bad, like, you know, you write words down on paper, guess what? You're journaling. If you, um, you know, just pause and breathe and kind of just sit with yourself for 30 [01:05:00]seconds. You're meditating, like don't make it bigger than it is. But by practicing these things and trying new things, you have them at the ready for when a craving comes up or an urge that you need to serve comes up.

Um, and given your spell and giving yourself space to suck at them in the beginning, when you don't like immediately need them can be helpful to, um, again, practice and, uh, try new things in order to build up your toolbox. So that when you have an urge, you're not going to bed at seven o'clock every day, right?

You can, you can work through it a little bit better, um, and, and just, yeah, keep building it up so that it does fall down that list. Uh, you know, as you go.

Steph: Hear, hear. And anecdotally, I started journaling again this morning. I'm not like a daily [01:06:00] journaler. Like, that's another thing. I just feel like I have big energy shifts that need to happen.

It might be knee related. It might be. Sober in the city related. I don't know. I just feel like a lot of weird energy inside. So I use journaling in that way, like when I have like very specific things to move through, but it's not something I do every day. I don't like gratitude journal every day and stuff like that.

So Yeah, you don't have to be perfect at it and it doesn't even have to be your main thing, but it's the only thing that works for me when I'm like doing this sort of work.

Kevin: Oh, that's great. Um, awesome. Yeah. Last night I kind of created a Instagram post for the first time in a while. Cause I'm like, I should get back to doing that.

I've been absent. I'm there kind of, but, uh, but that was a big thing for me as far as journaling was, uh, I journal. And that would kind of take that and be like, Oh, you know what? I'm going to go share that over here. Um, that's how I started that. And so probably post [01:07:00] something that I, that I wrote last week or last night, probably later this week.

So

Steph: nice. It'd be good to see you over there on the gram. All right. Anything else?

Kevin: No, I think, uh, except that you do need to delete, uh, the concise statement out of the beginning of the intro.

Steph: Absolutely. Um. This is the worst one yet.

Kevin: Yes. We should have said this in the beginning. I hope that you, uh, had a notebook, uh, to take notes on the things that stuck out to you with the, with this.

I think that's just a good idea in general, but yeah, I think there was just a lot of good thinking through like how those cravings as they come and how, how to move through them. Um.

Because there's no one way and it is going to look different for in different circumstances. So, yep. All right. Well, thank you everybody for listening to this week's episode of the [01:08:00] Reframeable podcast brought to you by the reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. And if you have a topic you'd like us to cover on the podcast, send an email to podcast at reframe app.

com. Or if you're on the reframe app. When you're in the app, give it, give your phone a shake and the box will pop up when you can ask a question. Uh, and let us know, uh, your topic there. I want to thank you again for listening and be sure to come back next week for another episode. Have a great day. Later.

See ya.