Rosamund Dean: Mindful Drinking

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Kevin: welcome everyone to another episode of the re frameable podcast, a podcast that brings you people's stories and ideas about how we can work to reframe our relationship, not just with alcohol, but with stress, anxiety, relationships, enjoyment, and so much more.

Because changing our relationship with alcohol is about so much more than changing the contents of our glass. This podcast is brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol. It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you.

My name is Kevin Bellack. I'm a certified professional recovery coach and the head of coaching at the Reframe app.

Emma: And I'm Emma Simmons. I'm a Reframer certified life coach and Thrive coach with Reframe, and I'm from New Zealand. Hence the weird accent. But we have another weird accent today, which makes me feel better.

Today we're excited to be joined by Rosman Dean Roslyn is the author of Reconstruction, [00:01:00] how to Rebuild Your Body, mind, and Life After Breast Cancer. And Mindful Drinking, how Cutting Down can Change your life. In 2021, she was diagnosed with breast cancer and documented her journey with a column in the Sunday Times style. She has since founded a popular wellness newsletter on Substack chronicling her efforts to future proof her body in a way that is relatable and doable. Rosman lives in London with her husband, Sunday Times writer, Jonathan Dean and their two children.

Welcome, Rosman. I'm so excited to have you here. Hi. Thanks so much for having me. It's it's cool having another accent on this podcast because normally it's Kevin and the Americans. Just say,

Kevin: I'm the, you're the open accent now. Yeah, I'm the odd man out

Emma: two. Your air. Kevin, do we sound similar?

Rosalyn and I, you probably need to wait for us to.

Kevin: I'm just gonna say I believe so, but I'll, I do need to hear more. 'Cause now Yeah, you say that and I'm like totally drew blank on listening [00:02:00] to both of, I'll ask you again

Rosamund: at the end of the

Kevin: episode.

Rosamund: Okay. It is funny, I have friends who are from Australia and New Zealand and when they go to America, people ask them if they're British.

Yeah. I've had that common confusion, I think.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin: I think, and I'll say yes, similar.

Emma: Yeah. We're getting more, people are starting to understand the difference between British and. Australia and New Zealand, but they still can't differentiate between Australia and New Zealand. But that's like American and Canadian.

I struggle to pick the accent sometimes between Americans and Canadians.

Kevin: Yeah. That's more of once yeah. The pro progress is Canadian progress is American. Anytime I hear someone say progress, I'm like they're Canadian. About is more of an abo a boot.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah's different emphasis on some and things.

Rosamond, are you having a cracker day? Do you know what that means?

Rosamund: I actually

Kevin: don't. No. Okay. Because Emma used [00:03:00] that in a meeting she was hosting, I was her chat moderator and she said yeah, have a cracker day to someone, and I immediately tensed up. I'm like, what the hell does that mean?

I said, does not mean the same thing.

Rosamund: No. Yeah, if it's a cracker day outside, I heard a person described as a cracker.

Like a firecracker. Like a

Kevin: Oh,

Emma: It does look like you're having a cracker day outside, though. So a cracker day in New Zealand would be like blue skies and it's just a lovely temperature and it's yeah, a great day. But

Kevin: I googled it in the, or I searched it in the meeting and it's like in UK and Australia, it's means this in America it

Emma: does not.

Oh yeah. America,

Kevin: we're just like, what?

All right, Emma, go for it. Pull my foot outta my mouth. Yeah. Tangent. Nailed let it begin.

Emma: So I was researching you obviously for this podcast and I [00:04:00] assumed, as many people would that once you had the breast cancer diagnosis. Actually first of all amazing that you are, that you've battled this journey and you're speaking about it and sharing it with the world, because I think these are the things that we do need to talk about and take some of the fear and stigma away from breast cancer.

So thank you for doing that from women all over the world. Thank you. And when I was researching you, I assumed that you would've become mindful with your drinking after your cancer diagnosis because.

As it can be a contributing factor to many forms of cancer. But you wrote mindful drinking in 2017 and were diagnosed with breast cancer in 2021. So mindful drinking came first.

Rosamund: Yes, it did. It did. So for me, mindful drinking really came after I had kids because I I spent my twenties and [00:05:00] quite a lot of my teens and my early thirties being, drinking like a, an average British person drinking quite a lot all the time, every social occasion involved drinking.

I'm a journalist, so my work involved lots of events where there were drinks, it was just. It was incredibly ingrained in my life. And af when I remember when I was pregnant the first time, I really enjoyed not drinking. And I loved going back to dinner with friends and not feeling really clearheaded the next day.

And, remembering everything that everyone had said and not doing something embarrassing. I might regret the next day. All of those benefits of not drinking. And I thought, once I have this baby, I'm gonna carry on not drinking and I'm going to be this glowing, sober mother who like, this is my new life.

This is what it's gonna be like. And that lasted literally until somebody handed me a glass of champagne after the baby was born. When you have kids, it's. [00:06:00] It's really easy to fall into this thing of drinks with mum friends where like drinks to bond with mum friends. Then when you go out with your old friends, you really want to show them that you haven't changed and you can still drink like you used to.

So you tend to drink even more in that situation. And then you also tend to be spending your money more in the supermarket on bottles of wine rather than out at bars and stuff. 'cause obviously you go out less as a new parent and then you, because the wine from the supermarket is cheaper, you end up buying more or you end up just knocking it back.

A measure that you pour at home is generally much larger than a measure that you would have in a bar. There were lots of reasons that I had not foreseen that actually. It can be quite a, it, a new parent can be a bit of a stumbling block if you are trying to drink less alcohol because there are just so many ways in which it's involved in that experience. If you think about all of the memes online of, mom Iese [00:07:00] wine and all that kind of stuff, and feel bad moms, and over here we have this show called Motherland, where it's like drinking is a big part of it and it's yeah. Yeah, it's so ingrained in parenthood as well.

I realized that actually if I wanted to drink less alcohol. I couldn't just decide to drink less. I had to really have a plan and a strategy and know how I was going to do it. And that's why I decided to write the book, really. And also it was because at that point, sobriety was not my goal. I didn't want, I didn't see myself as somebody.

Who wanted to, or actually, if I'm honest, who could be completely sober. I just wanted to drink less alcohol and just be a bit more in control of it. And I realized there were lots of books out there about sobriety and not much for people who just want to drink a bit less. So yeah that's why I wrote it.

But interestingly, so many people have got in touch with me since then. I get so many dms [00:08:00] saying that people bought the book because they couldn't ever see themselves as being sober. They just wanted to drink less alcohol. And then actually through the pro process of drinking less and realizing that they can socialize sober and they can manage their stress in a different way.

And, they can celebrate with a kombucha in their flute instead of champagne. And then. Once they realize more and more that they can do those things, they start to be like, actually, what role is alcohol serving? What purpose is it serving in my life? And they naturally became sober. So yeah.

I'm not saying the book is to trick you into becoming sober. Some people do find that's fair. O other people just drink less and they're very happy with that.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rosamund: Yeah, it can be an entry level sobriety tool.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. I've gotten I've gotten messages in chats on our community meetings in the past from people questioning, reframe.

'cause we have a cutback track where you can cut, you can just focus on cutting back. You can focus on going to mindful [00:09:00] moderation or whatever you wanna call it or identify it as, or there's a quit track where you can work on quitting being alcohol free and somebody I. Would ask okay what's the goal here?

Is reframes goal to get everybody from the cutback track onto the quit track? I'm like, no. Like I, I probably said it in some way, like dramatic way like this, but I'm like, I don't care what you do. Which I do. I wanna support people. So I do care, but it is up to you and it's a gateway to opening the door.

That's why, that's why I started working here in the first place because of the fact that it had the cutback track. It was just all alcohol free. I wouldn't have worked here because, I, that was me. I was looking for something to, I'm like, I need to cut back. I couldn't see a life without alcohol.

And so I. AA wasn't gonna work for me because that's, in my head. It was full abstinence and that's what I have to do there, so I'm not gonna go there. So what else can I [00:10:00] do? And I love that. Yeah. Your book reframe, other things like that have open that door for us. To just think about it, maybe for the first time ever.

Rosamund: Yeah. Yeah. And it's actually really interesting with mindful drinking. 'cause I remember when the book came out, some people were quite critical and from both sides. So I had drinkers saying, oh, abstemious control freaks out to, being sack harmonious and telling us to drink less alcohol.

And then there was the kind of some people from the sobriety community saying, no amount of alcohol is healthy. You can't tell people they have a healthy relationship with something that's like a toxic substance. And yeah, I was getting it from both sides . but I feel like you have to start where people are, you have to start from where you are.

And there are lots of people. My, my nan had a g and t every night before dinner and lived to 98 and, had a lovely time. And there are lots of stories like that. I'm definitely not demonizing alcohol if people want to have. The odd drink.

Emma: Yeah.

Rosamund: [00:11:00] I just want to provide support for people to cut back if that's what they want to do.

Emma: Yeah. I think, I dunno if this is a, this is probably a, not an old wives tale, what am I thinking of? But I remember hearing or reading somewhere that Queen Elizabeth had a GNT before dinner every night since, probably before she was legally allowed to drink. Yes. Yeah. And she lived to a ripe old age as well.

So there are people, although I don't know anything about Queen Elizabeth's drinking habits other than that, but yeah, there are people that do live to a ripe old age and are quite happy and able or comfortable with their drinking habits. And that's awesome. And I, but I think it's really cool to have tools and resources out there for those of us who are like this doesn't feel good, or I need to change something.

But I dunno how or like you said, just. When you do have the experience of a little bit of time being alcohol free, whether you are pregnant or for whatever reason, and you go, oh, actually this feels really good. I'd like [00:12:00] to do that again. But then, I don't know, life keeps life ing and all of the mummy events where there is always wine involved and all of the, even yeah, baby showers.

We talk about this quite a lot. Baby showers have alcohol now and school events and fundraisers and kids' birthday parties and there's, yeah. So how do you navigate that? And yeah, sometimes it does take some tools.

Rosamund: Yeah, exactly. And it's kind, it's, it is about providing those tools for people rather than telling anybody, this is what you must do, because nobody likes to be told what to do, and it doesn't, nobody ever made a healthier choice because of shame or because of being bullied or told to do something.

It's only, only happens when you want to and when you decide to do it for yourself.

Emma: Yeah, totally. Did you have a like moment of, I've gotta do like an aha moment or I need to do something about this. What was the [00:13:00] spark? Was there a spark or was it a gradual kind of,

Rosamund: I would say it was not one day or one event.

I, I suppose the event would be becoming a parent because then you can't lie in like you previously would have. You can't, hangovers with toddlers are the worst. They're absolute worst. The absolute worst. And also you, I was just really aware that I was not being the kind of mother that I want to be when I'm hungover because I'm impatient, grumpy, really.

And you can't be impatient when you've got small kids. That's like patience is the number one thing you need.

Emma: Yeah.

Rosamund: And yeah, and I just thought. In the evening when we, 'cause then we had another kid a couple of years later. When you get the kids in bed, especially when you have a baby and a toddler, that is a very particular struggle.

And when you get them in bed, there's such a there's really something about that cracking open a cold drink and like settling on the, so like this is my time now. The, I've done my [00:14:00] work, the kids have gone to sleep and drinking becomes so associated with that. And I think it was wanting to break that habit because I knew that it wasn't making me feel good.

It wasn't making me the kind of parent or the kind of wife or the kind of friend that I wanted to be. And also just to bring in an element of vanity. I was in my thirties and feeling like. It's not making me look as good as I like to you to become aware of the sort of physical manifestations of drinking alcohol.

It does make you gain weight and it does sort show in your skin and you do, you are a bit more fresh faced when you don't drink, let's face it. So I'm not gonna pretend vanity was not a driver as well.

Emma: Yeah. It's amazing how kids can make you or help you reassess so many things in your life and fast.

Definitely your age

Rosamund: help you realize quite how old you are. Exactly. When you're not getting any sleep. [00:15:00] Yeah.

Kevin: So how did you, not necessarily that aha moment, except for kids coming along and how did you make a change though? Your book wasn't out then. What resources did you use or what, how did you go about that?

And how did that feel? I.

Rosamund: It's quite interesting. As a journalist, I basically decided to write a book about it. Okay. And then I interviewed lots of experts and they shared their expertise that I could condense into some very practical, useful tips. The first thing I did was have a complete break. So I think, and I recommend this in the book as well if your goal is not complete sobriety, but just a more mindful relationship with alcohol, then I think it's a good idea. Just have a month off, just almost, just to show that you can, and also to reset your tolerance as well.

I think it just makes the whole process a lot easier because you learn a lot about yourself [00:16:00] during that month. You learn about the moments that you feel like reaching for a drink and what your triggers are and whether it's 'cause everyone is so different. So for me, I was always a social drinker. So if I was in the house on my own, I could very easily not drink.

I didn't have a yearning to drink. But if I was in a social situation, it was very much a part of that. It, I would, if I said I wasn't gonna drink and then a friend was like, oh, come on, it's my birthday then. I would definitely have a drink. Like it was the social pressure that I couldn't cope with.

And I remember when I was writing the book I was talking not to my editor, but to somebody else who worked at my publisher, and she said, but what about those evenings where you're just like at home on your own, on sofa and there's just a bottle of wine in the kitchen and one glass turns into a whole bottle.

And I was like, oh my God. I hadn't even thought of it from that angle. And then I really went deep into the science of behavior change and realized all the different reasons why people drink and all the [00:17:00] different techniques they can use. And yeah, I suppose one of the first key things that you will discover about yourself in a month off drinking is why you drink.

And that's a really important thing to know from the beginning.

Emma: And there can be lots of, like you said, lot, lots of different scenarios of why we're drinking. It can be that social pressure or that social anxiety, or it can be loneliness or boredom when you're at home by yourself or pure habit of, we, after the kids are in bed, we sit down on the sofa with a glass of wine and that's our routine.

That's what we do. And something I'm really big on when I'm coaching and and hosting meetings is figuring out what the antidote is for each scenario. The antidote for social anxiety drinking is not the same antidote as for I'm lonely and home by myself, or the kids are in bed and I'm knackered and I.

The fix for that trigger is gonna be a different approach to each of those scenarios. And so [00:18:00] figuring out what's gonna work in each situation so that you've got a whole toolbox full of tools that you can use no matter what scenario you find yourself in. And I guess part of that month of, abstaining and getting curious about things as part of figuring out what all those triggers are and trying to get curious and figure out what the antidotes might be.

Rosamund: Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that I love about the Reframe app as well, is it has all of that, it gets you really thinking about those reasons is shows you science behind them as well, which I think is really helpful for people to see. Yeah,

Kevin: yeah. And like you said about building up that toolkit, because that toolbox of.

Because we might go through one thing and be like, oh, this worked perfectly. And then so we like, okay I'm good. I'm gonna use this for everything, whatever it is. And then something comes outta left field and, sorry, that's probably a, maybe that's not a [00:19:00] good reference to use with someone. Not from the us baseball.

No, we had Tofield baseball, our friends. Okay.

Emma: I didn't know it was the best for, but we know you both got me all in my head

Kevin: about the accent talk in the beginning. But Right. It's all these things are different and it, and something that works in this situation is definitely not going to work in this or just not be as effective maybe.

So it is really about finding that out. I, I. I would always say oh yeah, I drink because of work stress. That was my default in my head, and that's what I believed until I took that break in the beginning. 'cause I did this, I did that clean break in the beginning of my own journey, which of, I was not gonna quit forever, but I was gonna take a break and, find out what really causes me to drink.

And I realized it was all the emotions, all the things. And so really getting curious about that and as you said, like seeing what are, what response do I need to insert here [00:20:00] in this situation with friends or in this situation with stress or whatever it might be.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah.

Emma: You, you mentioned, that desire to have a drink once the kiddos are in bed and you are like, you want to relax, you need to relax, or it's your time.

And you feel like you have to have a drink to do that. That's almost the door opening to how we relax as parents, as mothers in particularly, I assume fathers do the same thing, but I dunno. Yeah. Kevin's going. Yeah, I did. What would you say to someone, like what was your tool in that scenario of how do you relax without reaching for the bottle of wine?

Rosamund: Yeah. One thing that I found really interesting is that it's the ritual of making the drink and it being something special that's just for you and got nothing to do with the kids and. [00:21:00] Sitting down with it and having that kind of exhale of oh, this is my time. And that even just that kind of clink piss of opening a bottle, I think gives you, gives you that kind of feeling of this is, it's I think a lot of people had this during the pandemic actually, when it was the lockdowns and everyone was working from home.

I, there were lots of stats about people drinking a lot more at home and I do think there was an element of, it got to the end of the work day and people wanted something to demarcate their work time from their own time. And I suppose it's a, it is a little, it's a little bit like that when you get the kids into bed as well.

So I realize it's a lot less about what's actually in the glass and it's a lot more about. The ritual of it. So I think if you, rather than just trying to cut out that drink and not replace it with anything, I think find an alcohol free drink that you actually really enjoy. And there are so many options now, like every year brings [00:22:00] more alcohol free options and so many of them are so good.

They're like properly delicious grownup drinks. It's not like the days when if you didn't drink you had to have a Diet Coke or something. It's no, there are some lovely alcohol free drinks and you can mix yourself up a little alcohol free cocktail. You could pour yourself a, I know whenever it is you fancy an alcohol free beer.

And I think if you have some nice glassware, some a slice of lemon, make it like a special thing and it scratches the same itch in a way you can almost trick your brain. So yeah, I find that really helpful for me.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah, that's an awesome tip of it, it's not just about not drinking alcohol and like cutting that drink out completely.

It's what are you gonna drink and get, and like you said, there are so many great options. Now, back in 2017 when you started this journey, there would've been very few options. I'm thinking back to when I was pregnant with my youngest, so that would've been two. She was born [00:23:00] 2015, so 2014, 2015. There were terrible options for alcohol-free drinks out there.

Yeah. And now there is so many what was your go-to? Were you a mocktail, mocktail maker kind of girl?

Rosamund: I did so back then Seedlip did exist. The oh, wow. Gin. Yeah, that was quite an early, that was an early entry into that market, wasn't it? One, one of the first, maybe, if not the first.

And it definitely existed then, because I pretty sure I mentioned it in the book. And I did, there was also this drink called Shrub, which is, I dunno if this is quite a British thing. It's made from vinegar, which sounds disgusting. Yeah. Do you know it? I've gotten

Kevin: it because I think I've talked it, was it liars?

Is that how you say it? The, that's the American, yeah. I, they gave, if you bought a few bottles, they would give you a free, 15 minute talk with a mixologist or whatever, and they recommended that. And yeah. So I've used that before.

Rosamund: Yeah. Yeah. I actually love it. That ary that gives it like a kind of bite

Kevin: bite.

Yeah.

Rosamund: It's [00:24:00] almost like an alcoholic drink.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rosamund: Yeah. So there's, there was, yeah, like swls and shrubs, I I think are really nice. And kombucha as well. And I'm a big fan of kombucha, although I know in America you can get hard kombucha. Yeah. 'cause I actually we went on holiday to America and I said I'll just get a kombucha.

And it was an alcoholic one. I didn't realize that was a thing.

But yeah, normally over here, when you buy a kombucha, it's alcohol free. Yeah. Same in New Zealand.

Kevin: Always have to be on the lookout for, I've seen hard root beer, hard obviously, hard seltzer hard ginger beer was one too that I, somebody got one time and I'm like, shit, do I have to do, I have to watch out for my ginger beer now too, like bars, because I really love ginger beer because of the bite, like you mentioned with shrubs.

That's, it it didn't, doesn't remind me of. Alcohol necessarily, but it just is, it's different, right? If I drink water and coffee all day, something a little bit different is nice.

Rosamund: Yeah, it feels like a grownup drink. Yeah, that's the [00:25:00] thing.

Kevin: I don't remember exactly where off the top there, but one of the things that I've mentioned to people where I've talking, in talking with people and, coming up with looking at.

Triggers we're looking at oh, is it the witching hour? Is it the, what, how can we turn off that autopilot? Or is it, okay, kids are in bed now I'm gonna sit down and relax. And that's one of the things I brought up is and think about is, you mentioned you sit down on the couch, you have that drink, you take a sip and you're like, and that's one of the things I point out. That alcohol isn't in your system. Like you're relaxed right there, yeah. And that alcohol, even before it necessarily hits your lips, but you're taking a sip and immediately you're just like, oh, okay. Because, I think your brain knows that, okay, this is our time.

I know what's coming. Yes. But that ra, that relaxation is, that's where making something [00:26:00] like this, people say, keep the ritual, change the recipe. And having that can mimic that feeling of ah, this is okay. This is my time. So yeah, I do think that's a great way to, and it doesn't have to be a non-alcoholic beer or mocktail or, replacement.

It could be anything that you enjoy, cup of tea or whatever. But I. Yeah. I think that's something important for me. I know it was to realize like I'm relaxed before it even gets in my system because I sit down and I know it's coming. Yeah. How can I use that to my advantage?

Rosamund: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's so psychological, big part

Emma: of it, isn't it? Yeah. That process, that habit yeah. So you've been in this game for a wee while now, you've been sober, curious and thinking about your drinking habits. For at least, oh, Emma, do math quicker than [00:27:00] this. I was gonna say for at least 10 years, it's way longer than that. 15 years, not quite. Anyway, a long time, 13 years, 12 years.

Kevin: What math are you doing?

Emma: I'm trying to go 2017 to 2025. And my brain's not braining

Kevin: eight.

Rosamund: No, that's eight years. But my son was born before that, so that was when I was Yeah, that's what I was wondering.

Yeah, so he's 10 at the moment. Yeah, nearly 11. So I guess it's nearly 11 years. I've been thinking back to it. Yeah,

Emma: been in this game. Kevin's absolutely not gonna cut that out. He's gonna let everyone know how good my math is it's early

Kevin: in New Zealand, so we'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

It's okay. Coffee hasn't

Emma: kicked in yet. My point being what changes have you not, have you noticed? Like in the media and in the social perceptions of how we drink and how drinking culture is being, I. Addressed. Has there been a shift?

Rosamund: So many, I think the changes have been enormous in the past decade.

So when [00:28:00] I first started trying to drink less alcohol and struggling with it, I feel like people's attitudes have changed so much since then. Like now, if I went to a party and said, I'm not drinking, I really don't think anyone would bat an eyelid. I know they wouldn't. 'cause I do it all the time now.

Whereas then people would be like, what are you pregnant again? Has something happened? Like it, they would always have to be like, a big reason why you weren't drinking. And I think that has been. That. Certainly in the circles in which I was running in London, that was certainly the case. I know it's, I know it's not the same everywhere.

I had an American friend when I was pregnant would I remember she said, why is it a big deal that you're not drinking? I often go out and don't drink. And I think maybe in America, people do drink less. Like in, in Britain there is just a big drinking culture and it's just so ingrained in every part of life from socializing to [00:29:00] celebrating, to commiserating, like literally everything.

Yeah, I would say that has changed a lot. And even situations like even situations where you would imagine that you would definitely need alcohol, like karaoke or do either of you guys know what a Kaley is? Yes, Kaleigh, it's a Scottish, it's a Scottish country dance party where there's, there, there's a lot of whiskey traditionally.

And you do these rid, I actually went to school in Scotland and we used to do them as pe lessons. We had to learn these Kaley dances. So I do love a Kaylee. If it's Burns night, I'm definitely dancing at a Kali and normally, everyone at a Kaylee is drunk. Whereas now I've been to some Kaley's sober and I've had sober friends there and it's been totally fine.

So I would say there's been a big shift in terms of. What I'm seeing with my friends in my age group, I'm in my mid forties [00:30:00] now, and but also a much broader shift in terms of society. I feel like the younger generations, gen Z definitely drink less alcohol. I think that's been shown in all the studies.

Obviously there are exceptions to that, but broadly speaking on the whole they drink less alcohol than we did at the same age. And and I do think there's just been a big cultural shift in terms of awareness around health and wellness and people wanna look after themselves and, self care was not a thing 15 years ago.

No, like at all. And now, in like my icons that I looked up to in my teens and twenties were Kate Moss absolutely hammered, stumbling out of a nightclub, like still looking amazing somehow in her sort of leather print coat. Whereas now the people that younger people look up to people on social media who are very aware, very [00:31:00] self-aware, very composed and very healthy a lot of the time.

Emma: Yeah. That's a really cool, I guess wellness trend that's happening is I guess one of the benefits of social media maybe. That a lot of influences are wellness focused. So they're working out, they're exercising not to be stick thin, not to be, what do they call it? Heroin chic, but to be strong and healthy.

And they're promoting or they're sharing what they're eating and trying to eat enough not. I only had a donut today. Ooh, look at me. Like it's about eating enough to be well and eating the right kinds of food and a balance of food. So I think that's a really cool wellness trend.

If you'll, for

Rosamund: social media is very much a double-edged sword, and I guess that every kind of healthy person on there, there's somebody selling something that's not very healthy. But I would say [00:32:00] alcohol, definitely. Alcohol is less of a thing. Maybe this is a good and a bad thing that everyone is so watched now and there's everything is recorded and captured.

Yeah. There's less of the kind of abandoned that there was when I was younger. When you went out and if you were drunk on the dance floor, nobody. Yeah, nobody was there. No one had the phone out filming it. No. Yeah, there was def definitely nobody filming it. And obviously young people these days do not have that luxury.

They're, I think they're just very aware that they're, there's always somebody there to capture something, whatever happens. So yeah, I would say maybe that's a negative thing. But in terms of drinking less alcohol, I suppose that's been a positive.

Kevin: It could be, right? Yeah. There's plenty of people who probably, I would probably be the one who, if that was, if we had cell phones back in the late nineties, early two thousands when I was in college, wouldn't have cared much probably.

But I'm glad we didn't. So there's very little evidence. But yeah, [00:33:00] that is, yeah, the awareness for sure. But also, yeah, being mindful of how we, I see it with my daughter too, like how you put yourself out there on social media or what people see what you don't want them to see and all of that.

So it's difficult.

Emma: . I guess with your background as a journalist, it, is it a passion? You're Substack is amazing. There is so much covered. It's like your mind body hormones.

You address your breast cancer journey, nutrition movement. It's like a whole wellness, like a whole body. Do we call it a blog? Is a substack a blog, we'll call it a substack. Is that, is this like your journalism passion, journalism and wellness, passion merging and exploding on in a good way onto the internet?

Rosamund: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like the joy and the luxury and the privilege of being a journalist is when I'm, when I've got a [00:34:00] problem in my life, I can write about it and then just find the best experts and and interview the people that know the most about it and learn about it. So yeah I think I've been very lucky that, so my job.

Previously to having had breast cancer up until 2021 I worked in women's magazines over here in the uk, Marie Claire, in style Razia. And I was deputy editor of Grazia until I went freelance. I handed in my notice to go freelance. I had a three month notice period. I worked that. And in the last week, just before I was about to go freelance.

I got diagnosed with breast cancer. So it was like the worst possible timing because obviously if I'd still have had the job, then I would've had sick pay. Whereas I was going into this world of being a freelance journalist, having been a big COVID cliche and res my values during lockdown and decided that I wanted to be around more [00:35:00] for the kids and that kind of thing.

So I handed in my notice, didn't have a job, was at home. This was just as we went into the second lockdown as well, and the one in January, 2021, that was really bleak. In the UK it was 'cause the weather was awful and it was so dark and it was so depressing and all the schools were closed.

So we were having to do homeschooling and I had to have chemo on top of that. It was like, it was just a lot. And in a way it was terrible timing, but in another way. It turned out it didn't feel like it at the time, but in retrospect it was amazing timing because I just had such a hunger to learn about how to be healthier and have I was very much like, why has this happened to me?

I didn't have the genetic mutations that make you more likely to have breast cancer because I was comparatively young and had a family history. They did all those tests and they said I didn't have any of them. Which is obviously great news, but also I was like, then why the hell has this [00:36:00] happened?

So I really went deep into all of the lifestyle things so everything that you do appears to either increase or reduce your risk of cancer, and it was just so interesting diving into the science of all that. And then obviously with a breast cancer diagnosis and treatment comes, lots of side effects.

There are lots of side effects from chemo. It caused early menopause for me at age 40, which brings with it a whole kettle of fish. And, I also had osteoporosis, early osteoporosis as a result of chemotherapy and early menopause. So there were just lots of ways in which my body just felt a bit broken and I just wanted to fix them and kind of future-proof it for the next 40 years,

Emma: yeah I had no idea that, sorry, excuse me. That chemo or, going through cancer and the treatments would. I, maybe I vaguely knew that it could put you into early menopause, but I didn't know that about the osteoporosis [00:37:00] and and there are so many lifestyle factors that can help with that help to reduce the harm or the risk.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

Rosamund: It was actually so interesting because when I wrote mindful drinking, there's, I didn't want to make it at all. Scare mony or kind of saying, these are all of the awful health things that will happen if you drink too much. But it is good for people to know the bit, I framed it as the benefits of drinking less alcohol is to reduce your risk of all these things.

So I did go into. Some of the, some of the illnesses and chronic conditions that can be caused by drinking too much alcohol over a long period of time. And when I came to learn about the research into breast cancer, I was just absolutely astounded. There were like, this was in 2017 when I wrote the book, there were over a hundred separate really good studies directly linking drinking alcohol to breast cancer.

[00:38:00] Wow. And and I was like, God, like I did not, I'm like, I'm a woman in my late thirties whose grandmother had breast cancer. I feel like I should know this when I was diagnosed with breast cancer, I signed up for everything that the NHS offers in terms of, around the treatment.

They do holistic stuff. And one of them was an online nutrition workshop. Everything was online obviously, because it was COVID and it was a nutritionist sort of talking through how to eat well and how to, how to be healthy throughout breast cancer treatment and also how to reduce your risk of breast cancer going forward.

And when she started talking about alcohol she was explaining the risk and she was saying just the facts. As they are. And as I, this is the advice in Britain and in America. I know they say there is no safe amount of alcohol to drink in terms of breast cancer risk. Every drink increases your risk.

Basically. It's quite stark the advice. [00:39:00] And when she shared that everybody on this Zoom call was like what? I've never heard this before. And I just kept my mouth shut. I was like, I wrote a whole bloody book on this. And I yeah. And even having read that, I didn't stop drinking.

I've only been drinking a bit more mindfully. Yeah, I would say that was when I had my breast cancer diagnosis, that changed my relationship with alcohol again, where I went down to being, oh, I was sober for basically a year during treatment. And then I. Now, I would say I'm probably 99% sober.

I'll have a really occasional drink, but it's so rare. I think of myself as a sober person.

Emma: Yes. Isn't that fascinating that there, there has been this information in this research out for so long and it's still not common knowledge, it's still not wildly out there in the public sphere.

We know that smoking is so bad for us. That's been pushed on us everywhere. But alcohol, it's interesting

Rosamund: because I was talking to, I was [00:40:00] interviewing an oncologist about this and I said, are you aware of this? Do you talk to your patients about it? And he said, no, people have just had this diagnosis.

They've been given all this really bad news. And then you're gonna say, now you can't have a glass of wine. You can't say that to people. And there was, it's an interesting perspective. Yeah. I think this is quite important information that some people might find useful and he was like I don't think they would, he just thought people would respond really badly to hearing that.

And I, I think some people probably would.

Kevin: Yeah. But then I think other

Rosamund: people would be like, that's really important information and I'm really glad I know it.

Kevin: Yeah. I mean you don't, maybe you don't have to say it, but maybe there's a pamphlet you can give or something like, come on. Yeah. Or things to, I'm guessing it would be in things to avoid or I don't know.

Maybe not. But yeah, it is mind blowing. Yeah. They

Rosamund: gave me that advice, that's for sure. Yeah. Apart from this nutrition workshop, but that was only 'cause I'd signed up for that as a person who's interested in that [00:41:00] kind of thing. Yeah. Like it's not, it was not given out standard advice.

Kevin: Yeah.

Yeah. I, because I know that was in, I think 2020. Was when the American Cancer Society came out with their guidelines related to alcohol, and they said that was like a big deal back then. I know everybody was talking about it to, reduce your cancer risk, there is no safe amount of alcohol that every drink is going to increase your risk of cancer, getting cancer.

Emma: Yeah, that was

Kevin: a big deal. Everybody, obviously, everybody in the sober community and the mind, sober, curious and all that, latched onto that and putting that out there.

But,

Rosamund: but yeah. Outside of that, I feel like it's not very widely known.

Kevin: Yeah. No.

Rosamund: People say, oh, it's good glass of wine. It's good for your heart. It's good for your heart. Your heart. They look out the research that they wanna hear.

Kevin: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. When you said before earlier when you were talking about Queen Elizabeth and was it your grandmother who lived till 98 Yeah.

And had a g and t every night. I would've heard that story and be [00:42:00] like, see, yes, there's people doing it. I can do it even though I'm not, I never liked gin when I was drinking, but if I liked that, it wouldn't be one, it would be, five or six or 10. Yeah. And I would ignore that piece of it, but latch onto the fact that, oh yeah, this person.

Eats bacon, smokes a cigar and drinks whiskey every day and he's 99.

Rosamund: It is so interesting though, because with something like cancer, every diagnosis is so multifactorial. There are so many different elements to causation and you can't really, you can't really say that anything causes or prevents cancer.

You can only really say these things increase your risk increase and these things reduce your risk. Yeah, because even with something as clear cut as smoking, most people know smoking cigarettes. Causes in what increases your risk of lung cancer. Yeah. But you can't even really say that it [00:43:00] causes lung cancer because people smoke and don't get lung cancer.

Yeah. So there's always something going on, but obviously there are some situations where the, it increases your risks so much. You could almost call it causation such as with smoking and lung cancer. And I think you could say the same with drinking and breast cancer.

Emma: Yeah. I wonder if, I don't know, maybe I'll ask my kiddo.

She's studying health sciences at high school this year. She's doing a health class. I wonder when they talk about, because I know they do address alcohol, I wonder if they do mention that it increases the risk of cancer. I don't know. I don't remember learning about it when I was at high school.

I remember learning about how you get drunk and that's not safe and that's not good for you. But I don't remember. Yeah. I wonder if it's part of the curriculum these days that are they starting to educate our kiddos a little bit earlier? That it's, the worst side effect of drinking isn't just.

Getting drunk and doing something dumb. Yeah,

Rosamund: I know. Although when you are, [00:44:00] when you're young, probably the fear of doing something dumb is more of a de deterrent. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe getting cancer at some point in the future

Emma: Yes. Than when you're 30 and you are old anyway. Yeah, exactly.

Kevin: Exactly. Kids these days.

Yeah. I always thought it was like, oh, liver, that's it. It impacts my liver, but no, even the, and I can't stand all the What about your heart? It's like, why do you say that? Oh, 'cause antioxidants or something like that. I'm like,

Emma: can't eat some damn blueberries.

Kevin: Yeah. I'm always like, want the antioxidants.

What's a better way to go about that if you really cared about that antioxidant that it has is blueberries, yeah. It's not about the, that it's about the alcohol. That's the negative side of it.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: I am interested in that future. You say future proofing I'm curious if you wanna share what's something that you bite your tongue on that some people ask or that you want to tell [00:45:00] people about. But you hold back because, like the doctor saying they're not gonna want to hear that.

What have you learned that you maybe do or just, think about that , you hold back because you don't wanna be that person at parties?

Rosamund: I would say. It does not make me popular. I would say it's sugar. Okay. People hate to hear that. So as part of this same nutrition workshop where this nutritionist told us about the dangers of alcohol and breast cancer, she also talked about sugar and and your blood sugar levels.

And she went deep into the science of how I remember at one point she showed this diagram of like sugar this is a very, this was not exactly what it was, but this is how it has stuck in my mind ever since kind of turning a healthy cell into a cancer cell. It was like, and then it's a damaged cell and that can become cancer.

And yeah, so she said large amounts of sugar, disrupted blood sugar levels can be a [00:46:00] big contributing factor. I would say that is a. I will tell people they shouldn't drink. They don't like to hear it. But when it comes to sugar, that's that's what they give their kids.

That's what, how they celebrate their birthday. That's a, it's so sugary foods, even more than alcohol because it's like such a child friendly thing, are so connected, like love and belonging and reward and celebration and people. Really don't like to hear that they should probably have less sugar. So that is a thing where I definitely bite my tongue and I slightly regret not biting my tongue on it now because people hate hearing it.

Kevin: Yeah.

Emma: Emma needs to hear that. Kevin needs to hear that too. I was

Kevin: gonna say I hate hearing it and I need to hear it all at the same time. Yeah, that's, it's

Rosamund: funny they say that when you drink less alcohol, you get more of a sweet tooth.

Kevin: Yeah.

Rosamund: Because you don't really, you don't realize how much sugar there is in alcohol 'cause it doesn't taste sweet necessarily.

So when you stop having it, you are [00:47:00] having a lot like it, it can make you crave sugary things. Lots of people I've heard of, like they, they have said for years, oh, I don't have a sweet tooth. I just, I would always rather. Rather than a dessert, I'd rather have a cheeseboard with a nice red wine.

And then when they stop having the wine, they're like, I just want some cake. Yeah. It's really weird with

Emma: chocolate on the menu. Yeah,

Rosamund: exactly.

Kevin: Yeah. I had a sweet tooth before I, and I was that person who would, rather just have a drink instead of the actual dessert.

And then I stopped drinking and yeah, it was all full go. Yeah.

Rosamund: Now that dessert is a lot more tempting. Yeah. And

Kevin: I'm asking for a friend is six years too long without alcohol to be using? That is an excuse. I'm past the point of being able to use the excuse like I just gave it up and, because yeah, the sugar monster is real, but yeah.

Now I'm just back to sweet tooth folks. I don't think you

Rosamund: need, you don't need an excuse, like it is hard

Kevin: to

Rosamund: cut down on sugar. [00:48:00] It is really, it's so human beings have evolved to crave sugary things. Yeah. Because that, in the olden days, that would've meant like a fresh, crunchy apple or something.

I was say we found

Kevin: a bush of raspberries or something, some kind of berries, and we just ate all of them because we don't know when the next one will delicious. Show up. Yeah.

Emma: I remember early on in my sobriety journey, it would've been maybe four months in, and husband and I are always like ships in the night working and passing and I work from home.

And so he didn't necessarily see my caffeine and or coffee and sugar addiction 'cause he was outta work and I was at home. And then we were away for a long weekend together and he sat me down at the breakfast table and said do you think maybe you've transferred your alcohol addiction to coffee and sugar?

And I was like, yeah, get with the script babe. Like a hundred percent. But isn't this better than drinking? And so now he is do you think maybe it might be time to address that sugar addiction? And I'm like, oh yes, I know. I [00:49:00] know.

Kevin: As you brought a suitcase full of New Zealand Candy to America and took a suitcase full of American candy back to New Zealand, I.

Emma: Buy an extra bag to get all the treats back to New Zealand from America. Yeah, it's bad. It's bad. But yes, thank you

Rosamund: for the American chocolate is awful. I'm sorry to all the Americans listening, but it is, you have to have a dairy milk or something like the what? Hershey's Chocolate is terrible.

It's terrible. I took

Emma: several kilos of Whitaker's chocolate. I don't know if you have Whitaker's in the uk. It's a New Zealand chocolate brand. You might be able to ni Nigel Lawson was their like spokesperson for a little bit. So you might get some in some shops. Yeah. So I took several kilos of Whitaker.

I took several kilos of Cadbury's crunchy bars for a massive hit with the Americans. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rosamund: Delicious.

Kevin: I'm just gonna say I'm a little bit sick [00:50:00] of all of the non-Americans talking shit about chocolate and coffee here in America.

Rosamund: Should we start talking about

Emma: American cheese? Oh, I don't think I had cheese when I was in not like a cheese platter.

Kevin: Can't think. No. And at the same time, I want to travel more to experience these wonderful things. And yet don't want to know. I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't wanna say, you dunno how bad it is.

I don't wanna take the red pill. No, I don't wanna

Emma: see

Kevin: behind the matrix here. I wanna live in ignorance with my what I think is good chocolate. Good enough chocolate.

Rosamund: You're

Emma: acclimatized.

Kevin: Yes.

Emma: Yeah. Ignorance is bliss, my friend. Exactly. So what does if everything goes to plan, which having kids in a job and all of that, it's tricky, but what does a well day look like to you?

What would your ideal day look like? A day of wellness for you? Ooh,

Rosamund: so [00:51:00] I never used to, I never used to do any exercise. This was my big, because before having breast cancer I thought of myself as pretty healthy. I ate pretty healthily. I was a mindful drinker, but I didn't do any exercise. And I think it was because in my mind I associated exercise with weight loss and I thought I don't feel like I need to lose weight, so I don't need to exercise, which is, I.

Obviously such a ridiculous way to think about moving your body. And I dunno, I guess I was just raised on a diet of, you burning calories off or earning a meal by working out in the gym or whatever, and it's just so ridiculous, that whole thing. And obviously having had breast cancer and start, I started learning about all of the research there is now into the benefits of exercise after cancer.

And I think particularly with breast cancer, it can reduce your risk of recurrence by half, which is incredible. It's they give people [00:52:00] chemo to reduce risk of recurrence by 20%. And exercise is even more powerful than that. Wow. I realized I actually do have to do some exercise.

I'm a very naturally lazy person, so I found it really hard to get into it. But I have got into running, so I'm really slow. Like it's, it's not really running, it's more like a plot a jog, and I jog around my local woods. So a well day for me would be doing that in the morning, then having a protein rich breakfast.

This is, I know protein is such a thing at the moment. Everyone keeps talking about how we need to eat more protein. Yeah. And I, I think mainly we can all chill out about that as I understand it. But especially as a woman who's had early menopause, protein is important. So I, I do love eggs and I would like a.

A brunchy breakfast with eggs and grilled tomatoes, and which is [00:53:00] healthy and delicious. And then, yeah, one thing that I also have really got into since having had breast cancer and trying to incorporate more movement into my life is yoga. I love yoga now. And not just the kind of sun salutations and like, when you think of yoga, you think of down dogs and all the kind of, more active yoga.

I also love the really slow like yin yoga and yoga nidra where it's like you stay in positions for a really long time. Yeah. And you just really focus on breathing and it's more about relaxation than exercise. And I've just found such a huge benefit from that in terms of.

Managing stress and anxiety and calming down my nervous system in the evening. And I've, I feel like that has been a huge benefit. 'cause I never used to do anything like that for I didn't even use to think about managing stress as a thing. So yeah, that's been really powerful for me as well.

And [00:54:00] then. For dinner. I love having dinner with my kids. This is one thing that I'm doing with my kids at the moment, is trying to get them to eat more different types of vegetables. So they are quite good at eating veg, but they know what they like and they don't like to veer from it too much.

So I'm really, we are trying to eat vegetables that are in season and with this afternoon, for instance, after I picked up my daughter from afterschool club, we went into the Green Grocers and I said, choose a vegetable that I haven't seen you eat in the last six months. Something different from the usual.

Carrots or cucumber or whatever, she'll happily eat on an all day. And but it's your choice. You can choose anything here. And it's actually really amazing. Green Grocers with loads of choice and she chose these sugar snap peas and yeah. Yeah, I just love, I love like trying to encourage my kids to make healthy choices and cooking dinner for them and sitting down as a family to eat it together and chatting about our days and stuff.

I feel like that [00:55:00] has an enormous benefit, not only in terms of the healthy meal you're eating, but also just in terms of feeling good as a family. I think that's so important. So yeah, that would be my healthy day. I

Emma: love that.

Kevin: Yeah. That's awesome. I'd love too like having them pick out the vegetable, because if you brought home your snap peas Hey, we're gonna have this. No.

Rosamund: Yep. Yeah.

Kevin: But yeah, it's such a great idea.

Rosamund: Yeah. Give them a sense, a full sense of control. Yeah.

Emma: I am. I grew up in a family where we most often ate dinner on the couch, on the sofa, in front of the tv, watching the news. Mainly because our dining table was just like overloaded with shit paperwork and all kinds of crap.

And so a big thing that I'm, that I push, I don't know I'm big with our family of, we have dinner at the table and we sit down, we eat devices off, we chat. It's, when you're a busy family with teenagers and two working parents, it's [00:56:00] not often that you all sit down at the table together or that you're all together as a family and able to.

Have a conversation. And it yeah, forces the kiddos to think about what they're eating, but also think about how to make conversation as well. Yeah,

Rosamund: yeah. And I'm very aware, 'cause my kids are eight and 10, so I'm very aware that I'm in that kind of sweet spot where they're old enough to have grown up conversation and actually be quite funny and interesting and also young enough to still want to hang out with us and Yeah.

And still want to, we're in control still. And I know my son's going to secondary school in September and I know it's all gonna change.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah. Welcome to the teenage years. May the odds be ever in your favor?

Kevin: Yes.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: One nice thing that, I got a text this morning that my daughter, as she was driving, she wasn't texting while she was driving, but she texted me before she left school.

And she's do you want anything from Starbucks? I'm like, yes, [00:57:00] please. So there are benefits when they get older, but yeah.

Rosamund: Yeah. I can't wait for those days. Yeah.

Kevin: Granted that she uses the card, it's not like she's paying, she's buying. But she uses my card that has all of that has all the money on.

But anyway, as long as she delivers it to me.

Emma: Yeah. Delivered coffee. Amazing. All righty.

Kevin: Since we didn't have any nuggets, Emma, I think we can wrap it up.

Emma: Thanks so much Rosamund, for chatting with us today.

Where can people find you to contact you? How do they reach out?

Rosamund: I would say Substack is the best place. So my substack is called well it's all about has be healthier. And it's romond Dean do substack.com.

Emma: Awesome. Thanks. We'll pop that in the show notes and and tag them in the, definitely in the socials as well.

Kevin: Thank

Emma: you.

Kevin: And I think I'm going to be listening to this I'm looking at it now and Imperf perfectionism and the Power of Daish Habits, love Habits. [00:58:00] And I'm actually reading meditation for Mortals by Oliver Burman. Oh, amazing.

Rosamund: It's a great book.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, so that's what I'll be doing for the next 21 minutes after this.

Nice. So yes, we will add that into the show notes and yeah, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing. On the Reframe Able Podcast. So thank you all for listening to another episode brought to you by the Reframe app. Reframe is the number one iOS and Android app to help you cut back or quit drinking alcohol.

It uses neuroscience to reframe your relationship with alcohol and unlock the healthiest, happiest you. If you are enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe and share with those that you feel may benefit from it. And I wanna thank you again for listening and be sure to come back again for another episode.

Have a great day.

Emma: Bye friends. Thank you.